General Thoughts on DA/SA Pistols

[nirol]

If I could throw one thing in here (because I see people struggle with it so often)…

I think lots of the problem with the DA trigger throw comes from people having complicated techniques. The whole prep the trigger by pulling it right to where it will break and then breaking the shot thing works just fine when you don’t have a time element… but that technique isn’t very great at speed in my experience. If you just practice to pull the trigger right on through I think you will be faster and more accurate, even when shooting 30 yards or whatever.

That's interesting. As a new shooter, i've been told to always prep the trigger or else I'll end up 'slapping' the trigger. This is one reason I am so astonished as to how fast shooters can be accurate because it looks like they're not pausing for the 'prep' and are slapping (I know they're not).

What's the best way for a new shooter to practice slow, deliberate trigger pulls to learn....no prep, just a rolling pull? I am not trying to be fast now...but I'd like my slow technique to be the proper one to which speed can be added later (vs learning a slow way and a fast way) unless I'm missing something. Right now every shot I practice I take up all of the trigger right to where I think it will break, then try to creep past that point.

[ToddG]

What Stoeger mentioned earlier is staging, and like him I recommend against it as a technique.

There is a difference between prepping a trigger and staging it, though the difference is subtle. Staging is taking all the slack out of the trigger, consciously pausing, and then crashing through the break; it often involves repositioning the trigger finger slightly between "stages." Prepping is simply taking the slack out but still using good trigger control through the break. Another way to look at it: staging tends to be something one does while aiming, prepping is often performed when the gun is doing something other than resting in its firing position (pressing out, recoiling, etc).

I see people stage their triggers all the time and it has nothing to do with DA, SA, SFA, etc. In fact, staging the trigger is one of the most common mistakes I see people make with Glocks. From the moment my sights give me the green light and I've decided to make the shot, my finger never stops. The trigger may stop movement once I reach the break but I keep consistently adding pressure until the Big Loud Noise.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, like all things, precision and speed are opposing forces. As we start to go faster, we give up precision. People think of that in terms of group size, but really the group size is just the result. The precision we give up at speed is precision of our sight picture and precision of our trigger technique. It's because those are being performed with less precision ("see what you need to see" and whatnot) that the group size is bigger.

[Ben Stoeger]

As a new shooter, i've been told to always prep the trigger or else I'll end up 'slapping' the trigger. This is one reason I am so astonished as to how fast shooters can be accurate because it looks like they're not pausing for the 'prep' and are slapping (I know they're not).

I slap the trigger fairly often. I don't conciously "prep" the trigger... I just pull that bad boy right on through when I wanna pull it. My finger usually comes off the trigger between shots. There is really no reason for it, it is just how I roll.

[Jay Cunningham]

I deal with newer shooters w/Glocks a lot, and it takes a lot of work to get them away from staging their triggers to keeping their triggers in motion with gradually increasing pressure until the shot breaks.

[cclaxton]

One more thing I like about my DA/SA Cz-75 Shadow is that in IDPA I can compete in SSP with the same gun/trigger as ESP. The only difference is that in SSP I have to decock the trigger (manually mind you because manual safety only), and for ESP I operate it in cocked and locked SA-manual safety mode. Same trigger, same reset. Another unique thing about the Cz-75 Shadow is no firing pin block (not legal in CA) and after a hammer/trigger job this makes it the cleanest trigger you will find.

That being said, I am somewhat persuaded by Todd's comments on using a decocker to make the gun safe rather than the manual safety. Maybe I will reconsider that as an option. In the meantime, I am definitely better with the Cz-75 and will continue competing ESP until I make Sharpshooter consistently.

But Todd's comments beg a safety question: If operating a manual-safety style gun in cocked-and-locked mode (DA/SA or SA), can it be made just as safe as a decocker style DA/SA through proper training/procedures?

CC

[cdunn]

thanks Todd,i'm kind of going through a transition right now, coming from SA and Striker fired pistols.i have recently picked up a P2000 that i'm having a little difficulty with the transition.my last range trip i got a little frustrated and switched back to my m&p.I'm going to stop bringing the m&p with me.

[nirol]

Amazing. I've spent so much time practicing staging the trigger, on the first and subsequent pulls, erroneously thinking that was the key to me shooting better. Sometimes I've held it so long focusing on the sights and a clean break that I've actually started to tremble so I've had to back off. I was too afraid of 'slapping' it. I will work on a smooth pull, all the way through rather than staging the trigger to the break point, then pausing there until I'm ready (or think I am) for the break.

After the first shot, I try to not let the trigger all the way out, and keep my finger on the trigger...which seems to be good based on the original post...BUT, I think I focus too much on just letting the trigger out barely enough to get it to the reset point...almost like getting back to 'the perfect staged point' is my goal. Hopefully I can break this habit with a few practice sessions.

Thanks for the tips; I'm glad I found this site and registered.

[Jay Cunningham]

I tell my students all the time to stop agonizing over their trigger press.

[Serenity]

My only semi auto is a P226 and it is the only one I have shot more than a few rounds through. I always shoot the first shot double action, and usually only load 5 at a time (mostly to stretch my range time out). Maybe it's like learning to drive with a manual; it's the only way you've done it so you don't know it's more demanding.

I can switch between the S&W m67 and the Sig easily without seeing a change in accuracy (as long as I remember the sights are different!) I only shoot the m67 in double action, because I want to do steel challenge with it in the near future. I have shot one steel match with the Sig and was surprised to find that I had the same accuracy on the first shot as the followers. My son took a class last weekend and started running the Sig, too, and is learning the double action (he refuses to shoot the S&W in double, lol).

Thanks for posting this: I thought I was missing something really obvious somehow and didn't even know the right questions to ask. Also, I didn't know what all those acronyms meant (or a press out). It's funny how new people don't even know the jargon enough to ask questions about the jargon.

[Ben Stoeger]

Amazing. I've spent so much time practicing staging the trigger, on the first and subsequent pulls, erroneously thinking that was the key to me shooting better. Sometimes I've held it so long focusing on the sights and a clean break that I've actually started to tremble so I've had to back off. I was too afraid of 'slapping' it. I will work on a smooth pull, all the way through rather than staging the trigger to the break point, then pausing there until I'm ready (or think I am) for the break.

After the first shot, I try to not let the trigger all the way out, and keep my finger on the trigger...which seems to be good based on the original post...BUT, I think I focus too much on just letting the trigger out barely enough to get it to the reset point...almost like getting back to 'the perfect staged point' is my goal. Hopefully I can break this habit with a few practice sessions.

Thanks for the tips; I'm glad I found this site and registered.

Fundamentally, all that has to happen is to manipulate the trigger in some fashion so the gun discharges. Your technique for manipulation of the trigger cannot disturb the sight alignment any more than the shot difficulty you are undertaking allows.

It is SO simple that people just don’t want to accept it.

Anything that happens before you release the shot (staging, prepping, etc) fundamentally doesn’t matter. Anything that happens after the shot is released (releasing the trigger only to the reset point, letting your finger hit the front of the trigger guard, etc) fundamentally doesn’t make any difference. Press it straight back and you are good to go.