I find that people generally don’t know what they don’t know until someone tells them. At least he asked.Originally Posted by Navin Johnson
I find that people generally don’t know what they don’t know until someone tells them. At least he asked.
During my career I carried, in chronological order: .357 Magnum, .45acp, .40S&W and finally 9mm. I've seen their use, or used them all myself off the square range.
When I started in LE work .357 Magnum was the mandated round. I was all about the .45 back them, but I thought, "At least it's a Magnum." I used it twice in two years and it made a believer out of me. I them went to work for the state and happily switched to the .45acp. (Yay! Because even Odin cries at the sight of one.) We then transitioned from .45 to .40 and then to 9mm my last six months or so on the job. By the time I was issued a .40 I didn't care anymore. I'd seen enough stuff shot with enough stuff that I realized the hardware really wasn't the issue. Several years before retirement I switched my off duty carry from .45 to 9mm, due to the onset of arthritis from years of shooting things that start with 4 and often ended with Magnum. Consequently, when they gave me a G17 I was beyond concerning myself over caliber. These days, if I shoot or carry something other than 9mm it's because I like the gun itself not over concern for what it's chambered in. If you shoot like Barney Fife a few millimeters in bore size aren't going to save you.
We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
More importantly MacPherson did the first correlation studies between actual shootings and the various test results.
As noted up thread, it unfortunately took CHP another 30 years to stop teaching point shooting. Terminal ballistics don’t matter if you don’t hit your opponent. We shared a range with CHP for awhile and the results were.... unimpressive.
Last edited by HCM; 04-26-2020 at 12:27 PM.
To the OP, anecdotal information:
Large metro department near me has used 147jhp (Winchester LE) for a few years and have no complaints/horror story failures, etc. I personally know one Deputy who used 135 +P Hornady Critical Duty in a shooting defending himself and partner, and that stopped the threat. FBI current issue is, I believe, the Hornady. I discussed with some CA instructors several years ago where a Federal 147jhp stopped a knife slashing maniac. There are other reports of heavier 9mm projectiles performing adequately.
NYPD issues the 124 gr. Gold Dot, and I have not heard/read of any problems. I have not heard recently (2-3 years) of any use of 115 gr. rounds. As many have said though, all handgun rounds are just that: pistol bullets-plan for “failures”.
“DocGKR” referenced here puts it another way: pick a researched round, run a bit to verify function in your hands with your piece and then train and practice as much as you possibly can.
FWIW, I carried the .45 and .40 in the past. I almost exclusively carry a 9x19 these days; I do my best to dry fire weekly and confirm with life fire monthly. My plan in my “senior” years is to avoid trouble if at all possible, but respond quickly, accurately and overwhelmingly if bad things come after me and mine.
Excellent info, sir!
Gumby, if you go to Federal Ammunition's law enforcement website, you can find a chart illustrating how their ammunition performs in the FBI test protocol. Granted, I'd assume their employees did the testing, but it's on-line accessible to you.
HCM, when did the California Highway Patrol abandon point shooting? It's been some years now, but I attended an IALEFI RTC where Lou Chiodo gave an overview of their program as "the next big thing". Based on his training and that of Mike Conti, I tried to give point shooting a fair shot (so to speak), but could not justify training officers to shoot without aiming. In fairness, I think both Chiodo and Conti were sincere about trying to advance law enforcement skill-at-arms, but in the end, I think they went the wrong direction.
Just in the last few years but that bullshit is so institutionally ingrained they guys trying to fix things are getting a lot of pushback.
There is nothing new about it. It is just straight up Sykes / Fairburn / Applegate eye level point shooting.
They shot the shit out of everything at the range we shared EXCEPT the targets and they didn’t fix anything they damaged.
Last edited by HCM; 04-26-2020 at 01:40 PM.
I wasn't aware of the history there. The CHP guys I've shot with (all 3) are squared away shooters.
ETA - not doubting the target focused history, just surprised.
Last edited by Mark D; 04-26-2020 at 03:05 PM.
As another poster said, your new issue load (P9HST2) is my choice and I can buy/carry anything I want. It's on Doc's list, my own experience with Federal/Speer products is great, all set!
State Government Attorney | Beretta, Glock, CZ & S&W Fan
We have always been a 9mm sort of place since going to auto pistols.
We replaced Federal Hydra shoks with Remington 147 bonded and we also authorize Winchester 147 bonded.
OIS incidents have shown both to be effective fight stoppers. Decent performance punching through light barriers like auto glass.
Regards.
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