Thanks, just what I was looking for.[/QUOTE]Originally Posted by Gumby
When I ran my officers firearms program I carried the issued 40 to “rep” the brand, When I rotated back to the street I went with a personally owned Glock 17 and never look back.
Most of the agencies known for getting into a lot of shootings have been using 9mm for years. I haven’t heard any complaints. Federal HST 147gr is a fantastic loading.
My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.
<pedantry>Gel testing using the FBI’s ballistic testing protocols,, particularly the 4 layer denim tests
The FBI does not use 4 layers of denim, they use "heavy clothing" which is currently defined as:
1 layer cotton t-shirt material (~5.25 oz/yard, 48 threads per inch)
1 layer cotton dress shirt material (~3.5 oz/yard, 80 threads per inch)
1 layer Polartec 200 fleece
1 layer cotton denim (~14.4 oz/yard, 50 threads per inch)
From the protocols' adoption in 1988/89 until 2004 the FBI used down instead of fleece.
The California Highway Patrol was not satisfied with real world performance of ammunition that passed the FBI heavy clothing test so in 1996 they commissioned a fella named Duncan MacPherson to come up with something better. That effort resulted in the 1998 IWBA standard of 4 layers of (16oz per square yard) denim.
Unlike the FBI heavy clothing standard, the IWBA denim test was never intended to represent realistic clothing one might encounter in the field. It was simply choosen because defensive ammunition shot into ordnance gelatin performed more like in the real world after first passing through 4 layers of denim.
</pedantry>
That's what we use and I've not heard any complaints or seen any changes in outcomes vs the 180 Federal Tactical Bonded we carried prior.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
All that the then-mandated .40 S&W did, for me, was Snap & Whip my right hand much more than necessary, in the days when I did much high-volume shooting. (I had pre-tenderized my right hand too much, in the Eighties, with .44 and then .41 Magnums, in N-Frames too big for my K/L-sized hands.) By 2015, it was a career-extending blessing to finally be allowed to carry 9mm, as a primary duty cartridge. I had ZERO of “those” failure-to-stop dreams, so even my subconscious was unbothered by the switch to the newly-optional 9mm.
Actually, I had voluntarily carried 9mm, briefly, on street duty, in 1985, in an HK P7 duty pistol. (This was well before .40 became standard, and we bought our own duty ammo, within quite broad guidelines, in those days.) I used a Geco 120-something-grain cartridge with a solid-copper hollow-point bullet, with a polymer nose cap, to make sure I would get the necessary penetration. My right hand needed the break, after carrying and shooting that .44 Mag Model 629 for a year. (Young LEOs will do such things to prove masculinity.) I had plenty enough confidence in 9mm, even then. I did return to the noticeably “gentler-than-.44” .41 Mag, after about eight months, in order to be able to use a newly-approved open-topped break-front retention-type duty holster. (Duty autos were still mandated to be carried in the old-school flap rigs, and I’d had at least one bad scare, with those slow-to-draw things.)
Yes, even in 1985, I was aware that 9mm was quite adequate, if it moved fast enough, held together, and penetrated deeply enough. By the mid-Nineties, it was not difficult to find such 9mm ammo. I carried Federal 9BPLE in several personal-time carry and on-duty back-up weapons, in the Nineties. Notably, I do not believe that personal-time weapons should be less powerful than the ones carried while on The Job.
I am no expert. I have simply been around long enough to know which experts to believe.
I still like .357 Magnum, when I am carrying guns big enough to tame the recoil. The bullets are about the same, structurally, as 9mm bullets, of the same bullet weight, and so the Magnum load allows me to extend my effective range. I shoot a GP100 more accurately than my Glocks, which increases my personal effective range.
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
I could be wrong, but in my recollection, there were a number of large agencies that never got on the .40 bandwagon, to include Sac SO and San Diego PD. Neither one of those agencies had issues during many OIS, but in talking with their instructors, they issued various 147 grain JHPs and had a program that emphasized the principles of the Modern Technique of Pistol Shooting. One of the large agencies mentioned above in another post, the California Highway Patrol, has used a target-focused technique, so it does not matter what they issue, their results in actual shootings have been poor. High round counts and low hit percentages.
After the minimum standard of about 35 caliber and about 125 grains at about 1000 fps is met, shot placement is far more important than caliber or wunderbullet construction.
Last edited by paherne; 04-26-2020 at 10:44 AM.
It seems like as an LEO you would be able to access testing by other departments or the FBI. So I guess I find it odd that you would come to an open forum you just joined, not use the search function, and ask about "street results".
I used the search function and got nothing. I retired over 14 years ago and my former agency doesn't update us. The Sheriff started the transition over a year ago and I just found out about it.
The FBI results are not widely distributed. For an agency to get the results a supervisor must send a letter to the BRF that states the information will be used for official purposes and not disseminated to unauthorized personnel. Usually, that's the Firearms Instruction Staff. Line personnel generally don't get the info because there is more important info that needs to be passed along, like recent case law decisions, use of force policy changes, etc. during range instruction. Each individual department handles transitions in different manners. My agency switched from .45 USPs in 2014 to Gen 4 G17s. The transition process included a discussion of the ballistics involved and why the Department was changing pistols and calibers. Not all departments use the same procedures or instruction.
Knowing now that he retired 15 years ago was an important piece of info that is available now. I still find it troubling when there is an ammunition section with hours of useful material and new members start a thread with out putting any effort into research.
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