Is reloading from slide lock really slower than a speed reload?

[YVK]

So back off on the position of your thumb a bit and see if it will still drop 100% of the time without the 5% premature release. Simple!

After live session today, all I can say is that old habits die slowly...

[GJM]

What kind of stoppage?



Have you measured it on a timer and if so what is the difference? Especially given your extensive 1911 experience I'd think the WH thumb would be very natural for you.

Beyond that, I'm not crazy about the idea of putting my SH thumb there during the reload. You're having to move it up (to above the lever) then back down (to press the lever) then back up (to your neutral grip position). It seems like a lot of movement and opportunity to mess up other aspects of your SH grip. But if it works for you with your hands and your gun, and on the clock it's faster than using the WH thumb, drive on. First rule: if it works for you, it works.

Been out in the wilds of Alaska, and just got to test this this afternoon.

Yes, the support thumb is very natural. As much as I try to keep the strong thumb still, with the preloading method, I end up with the slide forward and no cartridge, more than I am willing to accept.

Using the strong thumb, by moving it up to the slide stop as/after I seat the magazine is about .20 faster for me than using the support thumb, and seems as reliable as using the support thumb.

[JeffJ]

Just gonna say it - Simple does not mean easy

[Steve S.]

I don't know what a "type 1" malfunction is, but that hasn't been my experience (nor the experience of multiple agencies which have adopted it) in all the years I've been doing it with the guns I've used: various SIGs, M&P, P30, HK45, and various Glocks.

I'm fairly certain you've heard the term "type 1 malfunction" before. But for the sake of discussion, in a nutshell it's anything fixed by a tap, rack, bang (or assess, if thats your bag).

To be clear, I had no idea you taught pre loading the slide stop, so it is by no means a dig at your instruction. I'm unfortunate that I haven't had a chance to take AFHF yet (I will though). I'm also fairly certain you probably teach a variation of the technique as I know it if you're having success with it.

But I'm not the only one in this thread who experiences themselves with an empty chamber when pre loading the slide stop. And it kind of begs the question, is the slight increase in speed worth the possibility (strong or slight) of having a "click" instead of a "boom" - whether on the street, on the range, or competition environment?

I'm not discounting anyone's choice, but the answer to that question for my level of training at this point is "no". The weak thumb is certainly slower, so if I could reliably pre load the slide stop, I would be doing it.

Again, this is nothing personal against anyone or their techniques. Cheers.

[YVK]

I'm fairly certain you've heard the term "type 1 malfunction" before.

I don't believe I've heard the immediate vs remedial type of malfunctions applied to a pistol before, although I presume why not. I've only heard this classification in carbine classes and I don't even think that it is something that's universally accepted. I took carbine classes from 7 different instructors and I am only certain of one using it routinely. Hence, I am not surprised Todd has not heard of it.

Back to pre-load, I achieved a 0% fail rate yesterday with P30 by preloading a trigger finger on the right lever and a thumb, as an "insurance policy", slightly off of left lever. The sample size of repetitions is too small to come to any conclusions, I didn't time myself since it is all too new, it is P30-specific, but I think it may have a future.

[GJM]

I don't see it solely as support versus strong thumb. I am finding that using my strong thumb after seating the magazine versus pre-loading is giving me a faster speed than using my support thumb, but the same reliability as using my support thumb.

[ToddG]

I'm fairly certain you've heard the term "type 1 malfunction" before. But for the sake of discussion, in a nutshell it's anything fixed by a tap, rack, bang (or assess, if thats your bag).

I've heard all sorts of things often with completely different definitions depending on who was saying them. That's why I asked.

But I'm not the only one in this thread who experiences themselves with an empty chamber when pre loading the slide stop.

So hopefully it goes without saying, but: if you cause the slide to release early, you're not doing it right.

And it kind of begs the question, is the slight increase in speed worth the possibility (strong or slight) of having a "click" instead of a "boom" - whether on the street, on the range, or competition environment?

How slight is slight? Have you measured it?

Otherwise, I agree with you 100% and actually tell students that exact thing. If you cannot reliably reach the slide release with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably release the slide with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably load the gun doing so, then the strong hand thumb is not how I'd recommend dropping the slide.

[Steve S.]

I've heard all sorts of things often with completely different definitions depending on who was saying them. That's why I asked.

Fair enough. I was going off my phone and wanted a blanket statement to describe several types of malfunctions.

So hopefully it goes without saying, but: if you cause the slide to release early, you're not doing it right.

I mentioned exactly that above. I would be interested in the correct way to apply the technique, if it's something that can be discussed publicly online without the need of physical demonstration.

How slight is slight? Have you measured it?

Sort of, but no. I time myself, but never was the focus of timing "pre-loading the slide stop vs weak thumb". Honestly, I was shown the technique awhile back, and after experiencing malfunctions, having a better time wouldn't have been enough to persuade me to use it. If I could get it to a zero percent chance of having an empty chamber or failure to feed - I'd be interested in the technique. I would just need to know a fool-proof way to do it, particularly under stress. I have also been in a class or two that are strongly against it (an opinion I'd reach prior already, so I never put much thought into it).

Otherwise, I agree with you 100% and actually tell students that exact thing. If you cannot reliably reach the slide release with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably release the slide with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably load the gun doing so, then the strong hand thumb is not how I'd recommend dropping the slide.

I don't know that that's the issue. I can do the above three no problem (big hands). I'm just in the past year trying to move from strong thumb to weak thumb when dropping the slide. This decision was after talking to a local instructor about the issue, and there were some good points in favor of weak thumb. So it's been a journey to make that transition of only using the strong thumb during malfunctions. Believe me when I say, I would LOVE to pre-load the slide stop. It's incredibly fast and intuitive. I just can't practice that technique without knowing the fool proof way of doing it.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this. And again, I honestly had no idea you taught it - so there's no agenda here.

[Surf]

What timing for this thread. Just so happens I had shot video on this topic and seeing this thread I went ahead and edited and published the video. Because of the different video's I have out in regards to reloading etc and just with all of my teaching and training interactions, I personally get asked about this topic often enough. First I will mention that I am not a competition shooter and that there are indeed guys out there that can flat out smoke me, but I do have a good advantage in testing the various slide release techniques as I do attempt to stay proficient in all of them just because of the need to suit various weapon types and student bases / needs.

I do have my primary and favorite technique and of course this is based on the weapon primarily and that technique is to release the slide with my primary shooting hands thumb. I mostly shoot Sig Sauer, Glock and Beretta M9/92 pistols with this technique. I do shoot a good deal of 1911's and 5906's so I do use a support hand thumb release quite a bit. Also when running full fingered gloves I use an overhand release. I will also support the fact that any technique needs to be highly reliable / repeatable especially in regards to using a pistol as a critical use weapon. Now a shooters efficiency and reliability often boils down to proper and correct training. As an example, when I use the primary shooting hand thumb as a release it is just as reliable as any other technique that I employ. Again it boils down to training and employing a correct and proper technique. Now everyone is not the same and some people just don't "get it" when it comes to certain things. If that is the case for a shooter then perhaps another technique might be better suited.

I understand and agree that reliability or repeatability of a technique is key, however we should not or cannot discount speed or the time that it takes us to get our weapon back into the fight. One FBI study that I pretty much agree with, is that we should think of another round coming at us every .25 seconds in a gunfight. So in essence we should train to save time in everything that we do when our pistol goes empty or when we have a malfunction. I consider myself a pretty proficient shooter and I literally save almost a half a second from my primary shooting thumb release technique to the next fastest technique. Since I have no loss in reliability or repeatability, that can become a huge game changer if the need arises.

Here is the video where I compare 5 techniques on a timer.
1 - Overhand Release
2 - Slingshot Release
3 - Support hand thumb release
4 - Primary hand thumb release
5 - Speed Reload

I threw in the speed reload just to compare it to the primary hand thumb release. I am pretty much dead on with times and came up with the exact 3 run average on times between both.

If you just want to see the shooting you can skip to it in the video.

[Al T.]

Too funny. I popped back on to post this video.