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Thread: Bites

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wingate's Hairbrush View Post
    It's a good rule of, er, thumb across mammals. It's physiology: "feeding" the bite -- meaning applying force toward it with the limb or digit being bit, causes the jaw to open wider, thus less biting force can be applied, and pushed far enough inward induces a sense of gagging and choking that often "breaks" the bite just long enough to quickly withdraw from it.

    Instinct when being bitten is to immediately pull away, which usually is least effective.

    Wouldn't the biter have more leverage closer to the hinge point of the jaw assembly? This is, of course, without initiating the gag reflex of the attacker.

    Keith

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith E. View Post
    Wouldn't the biter have more leverage closer to the hinge point of the jaw assembly? This is, of course, without initiating the gag reflex of the attacker.

    Keith
    I don't believe so -- greatest strength is in the middle of an arc, not the start or finish. Furthermore, the biter's jaw muscles are being forced to extend when they're trying to contract -- this increases the effort required to clamp down (and so diminishes clamping power) and increases energy expended in the effort.
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  3. #23
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Bites

    @RevolverRob, some biology help?

    This gets complicated. Mechanical advantage and the force-length curve of muscles typically peak near the same range of joint angles, and where the joint typically operates, but not always. Active lengthening (forcing jaw open when it’s trying to close) will almost always result in the greatest force at any velocity.

    But all the theory aside, I’d go with experts who’ve dealt with biting animals.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 05-04-2020 at 01:30 PM.
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  4. #24
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Took me a minute to catch up.

    There is certainly a limit to 'gape' (the amount the jaw can open) at which both the teeth can engage AND the muscle can contract with sufficient force to produce crushing and/or shear.

    The classic cited examples of evolutionary tradeoffs are something like this:

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    Where the size/roundness of the prey object exceeds the gape of the predator (here right at the limit).

    The force across the arc of the jaw closing is more or less constant, until you get closer to the fulcrum point (jaw hinge) at which point it increases (think logically, do you crack hard food with your incisors or molars?). It's also not a simple 1:1 situation, the size, shape, and position of teeth makes a huge difference. Opening, I don't know if it matters much? I guess I only think of the jaw opening from the perspective of things getting ready to bite.

    Of course as Cluster alludes to - Force is also largely dependent on the insertion of the muscles on both the mandible and the skull. Humans don't have particularly long or robust masseter (primary cheek) muscles for our body sizes (compare ours to other 200-pound animals, basically). So while we generate a lot of force it isn't really comparable to what other animals might generate. If you want to get really freaked out go look at the jaws of bone cracking hyenas.

    RE: Tearing/Bruising - what's more effective to defeat a bite - Once both sets of teeth are set in, forcing the jaw open by attempting to shove something soft (tissue) into the mouth, probably isn't going to work, it's actually pretty hard to force the mouth open if the teeth have the tissue held. Imagine if you will, taking a clamp, and clamping a napkin inside of it. Then try shoving the napkin more through the clamp. The tighter the clamp, the harder this is to accomplish.

    That said, getting bit on thick tissue areas, like that which covers most humans, will typically not let extreme prognathics (short 'muzzled' animals like humans) get a great "clamp" on - imagine over stuffing that clamp above and trying to close it. Ever notice the most effective bites come on the extremities or things like the ears? Plenty of ability to clamp down and then do nasty things like torque. Even things like K9s are trained to go for the extremities the arms and legs, being places they can get a firm hold on. Dogs also have advantage of having a relatively long snout and thus can be more teeth on things.

    The more wide open and full the mouth is, the harder it is to generate shearing forces, leading to more likely ending up with crushing (bruising) damage.

    "Feeding" the bite might be difficult, but I guess it's worth a shot, because chances are if you can force in, instead of trying to pull out of the bite, you'll limit the biters 'clamping' ability and thus defeat the bite easier.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 05-04-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  5. #25
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wingate's Hairbrush View Post
    It's a good rule of, er, thumb across mammals. It's physiology: "feeding" the bite -- meaning applying force toward it with the limb or digit being bit, causes the jaw to open wider, thus less biting force can be applied, and pushed far enough inward induces a sense of gagging and choking that often "breaks" the bite just long enough to quickly withdraw from it.

    Instinct when being bitten is to immediately pull away, which usually is least effective.
    I would agree. Ive only been bit by one Rottweiler that lost his appetite after a punch to his face though

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