Nostalgia or simple reality? Configurations and accessories

[karmapolice]

I suspect for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of uses, there's no real gains for all the new innovations. I personally think optics are where the real improvements have been, but I'm not a hard customer to please and did just fine with a DRMO M16A1.

Let me preface this isn't a personal attack against you. Your post was the perfect shot across the bow that made me want to post a rebuttal. I don't know you personally etc. and most this applies to people I have first hand experience with.

First, mission drives the gear. I say this because I see a lot of people poo poo gear simply because they do not understand the context where it can be applied. On the other hand, you see many people copy other’s setup or utilize gear that isn’t applicable to them. However, this is the United States of America and I support people doing whatever the hell they want to do as long as it doesn’t maliciously hurt others.

I hear many people say that they do just fine with “X gear” but they really don’t ever utilize it in any meaningful way. An example is the M16, there is a reason people who regularly use rifles in the real world use don’t run M16’s. I get really pissed when dudes in LE/MIL talk about how they don’t need optics, slings, lights, etc. because in their experience they did not have those items and turned out fine or because in some past war/conflict they weren’t utilized.

A modern carbine rifle for LE use (I’ll keep LE specific because that’s what I do for a living) requires a red dot, white light, and a sling period full stop. That is the bare minimum for legitimate use for a patrol function and must be present on a reliable rifle. A carbine length (16”/14.5”) for general use is the maximum length (for special role guns longer barrels can come into play depending). A shorter barrel makes more sense for the heavy use in and around vehicles. Adding suppressors which are becoming a standard item and in my mind are essential for many reasons and adds to the need/use of shorter barrels. This is shown by people who uses them regularly. The modifications we have seen over the years has been the direct effect of the increased utilization of carbines in the daily use of LE. We’ve also seen this from the military from the ongoing GWOT.

This applies to handguns as well. The fact that not every LE especially those in uniform aren’t carrying a pistol with a weapon mounted lights is ridiculous. Yes, you need to provide them training to utilize them properly but it is still a sham. Honestly, most don’t even have a proper hand held fighting light. They have some junk task light that has no business being employed as a fighting light. Also, the fact we see so many substandard duty holsters, belts, magazine pouches, etc. is sad.

There are some items that unless you have the requisite gear don’t serve a purpose (for example, an IR laser when you do not possess NVG)

We talk about skill being king which is absolutely true. The other side of the coin is if you don’t have the skill, experience, and training you will not be able to understand yet appreciate the innovations of much of the equipment/gear that has come out in recent years.

[Rex G]

I bought my skinny-barrel Colt AR15A2 Govt Carbine in 2002, with PD letterhead. All it really needed was a white light, and way to mount it. I used am early edition of the Sling Thing from GG&G, which had a piece of rail on one side, and a sling loop on the other side.

Being left-eye-dominant, and so a lefty with long guns, if they have an aperture sight, I thought I needed an ambidextrous mag release, and installed one, a Norgon, IIRC, only to find that it was a waste of time and money.

I thought I needed an ambidextrous safety, and installed one. I hated it.

My aging eyes soon started needing an optic, and, as those were against PD rules, I sold my rifle to a colleague with younger eyes, about 2005, more or less. I worked straight nights, and usually favored a shotgun in that environment, anyway.

Not long afterward, white lights were forbidden, on any and all weapons, used for an LE or personal-defensive purpose, on or off the clock. (Deep. Sigh.) Eventually, a patrol rifle update class was started, and if we attended that, with an optic and white light, we would be able to use them, while on duty, though we would have to qual with iron sights. (Eventually, there were certification classes developed for using white lights on handguns and shotguns, but I finished my career without being allowed to use a white light on a weapon.)

Anyway, yeah, a quite basic AR15 is fine with me. It mostly lives in the safe, but my BCM Lightweight Middy is quite plain, with Magpul plastic hand-guards, a Troy folding rear BUIS, a short piece of rail, where I can click a Surefire X200/X300, and a mount for an Aimoint Micro.

I have two more complete AR15 lowers. My next upper will probably be light-weight, and mount a low-power scope, without BUIS. I reckon that back-up sights should be a second optic, with a decent return-to-zero mount.

E.T.A.: I also have a Daniel Defense DDM4V7P, with a brace on a LAW folder, but have yet to decide how to equip it, except that I want to keep it very light and streamlined.

[NH Shooter]

My next upper will probably be light-weight, and mount a low-power scope, without BUIS. I reckon that back-up sights should be a second optic, with a decent return-to-zero mount. E.T.A.: I also have a Daniel Defense DDM4V7P, with a brace on a LAW folder, but have yet to decide how to equip it, except that I want to keep it very light and streamlined.

Light and streamlined is where I'm at too. I once had a heavy 16" that shot amazingly well but weighed well north of 10 pounds without a WML;



Heavy barrel, heavy quad-rail, heavy optic, not-the-lightest mount, heavy stock - it was amazing how fast all those "extra ounces" added up. I've tried most of the major "food groups" in the AR platform and though this one easily held under one MOA, it didn't take me long to realize that a Rem 700 in .308 would better fill this niche for me.

This is the general-purpose carbine that sits in my safe now, and I have little-to-no desire to make any changes to it;



As shown this BCM 16-inch BFH ELW mid-length weighs-in at just over seven pounds, handles beautifully and consistently holds about 1.3 MOA with Speer LE 75 grain Gold Dot ammo. The 6-ounce Leupold FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm scope allows my old eyes to see the target clearly and combined with the DD mount weighs a total of 12 ounces. The Midwest Industries offset BUIS were a recent addition and do not require removal of the scope to use. The BCM lower is fitted with an A5 receiver extension, a Geissele SSA trigger, a BCM ambi-safety and furniture. There are two 5-slot rails at the front of the handguard, one at 9 o'clock to attach a WML and one at 6 o'clock to attach my Atlas 5-H bipod (neither of which reside permanently on the rifle). It has multiple sling attachment points that work with the variety of slings I own.

As already articulated, when it comes to setting up an AR for your needs, YMMV. In my case I really like this configuration - it's fun to shoot and is IMO short and light enough to still be considered a "carbine." For my use it has most of the capability I could ever realistically need without any unneeded encumbrances.

Perhaps that is the main take-away of this discussion: we are fortunate to have such a huge selection of quality accessories that we can make the AR be anything we want it to be.

[Nephrology]

I didn't own a single AR-15 until a year ago. Now I own... a lot more than one.

I cant pretend to be an expert or seasoned AR shooter so I have no real opinions on old vs new tech.

I will say that I really like the LPVOs I own (Vortex Viper PSTs, gen 1 and gen 2, 1 ea) and don't think I would want a red dot on a 16" gun. In the era of pistol braces and 30 day eFile Form 1s, it is effortless to put together a light short barreled AR for shooting <300yds. This is where I feel the red dot shines (though, I will admit, I've often thought of exploring the "mini Recce" concept lately).

If I am going to add another 4" of barrel to the rifle, I see no reason not to maximize on the advantage of a longer barrel. i.e. mid length gas system, heavy profile barrel, and LPVO. The latter two make the gun heavier, certainly, but allow me to take full advantage of the extra length and shoot the gun with confidence past 300yd. If I wasn't going to be shooting farther than that, I don't think I'd bother with a 16" gun at all.

[NH Shooter]

If I am going to add another 4" of barrel to the rifle, I see no reason not to maximize on the advantage of a longer barrel. i.e. mid length gas system, heavy profile barrel, and LPVO. The latter two make the gun heavier, certainly, but allow me to take full advantage of the extra length and shoot the gun with confidence past 300yd. If I wasn't going to be shooting farther than that, I don't think I'd bother with a 16" gun at all.

That makes sense, and I concur with that observation. That's what ultimately drove me down the custom precision rifle rabbit hole;



Note: the bipod has been upgraded to an Atlas 5H, which is 100x more stable than the flip-floppy Harris.


The area where I live is heavily wooded and hilly. I have to search for spots where I could actually take a shot longer than two or three hundred yards. A simple, street-walking visual survey of the immediate area (let's call it a two mile radius) in combination with distance measurement using Google maps tells the story: if the zombie apocalypse circus ever comes to town, the engagement ranges will not be very long. This in very large measure drives how my carbine is configured.

The other (and far more realistic) aspect is that I want a configuration that is fun to take to the range, something that is relatively light, handles well and that makes my recreational shooting activities enjoyable. My typical AR range session consists of an 8-inch steel plate set at varying distances (50 to 300 yards) and engaging it from variety of field positions (standing, kneeling, barricade, unsupported prone, etc.). If I'm feeling especially lazy I'll attach the Atlas, get comfortable on a shooting mat and just shoot groups. Though it has no where near the reach, precision or terminal impact of the bolt gun, for its size, weight and overall portability I'm always impressed with what can be done with it.

At the end of the day, my AR is intended primarily for recreational purposes. I count myself lucky that my use of it is (and hopefully will always be) limited to that and I don't have to load it up with mission-driven accessories.

[JDD]

I suspect for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of uses, there's no real gains for all the new innovations. I personally think optics are where the real improvements have been, but I'm not a hard customer to please and did just fine with a DRMO M16A1.

I think you could expand this to say that the vast majority of users don't have the training/skill/environment to fully appreciate much of the development beyond basic red dot sights.

That said, I deployed with the M4/ACOG combo, and it worked well at the time but I have no desire to go back to it. The variable power optics are a huge advance, as are the various free float rails. I think we have seen quite a bit more advance in the ability to tailor the rifle to the mission. A fixed 4x optic was a compromise in room clearing, and while I did just fine on the 500yard KD range with it (or Irons), my 1-8 nightforce is orders of magnitude better in either role. The proliferation of barrel lengths, rails, optics, and gas systems lets us better optimize rifles for a DMR role, or a PDW role, or a "general purpose" role.

If there is a failure to advance, I think it is a failure of individuals or agencies to match their procurement and doctrine to the proliferation of equipment options. The high speed / low drag, operator set has done a good job optimizing for their missions, and 2/3 gunners have done likewise - but those configurations may or may not match an agency or individuals needs. Folks who are copying the new sexy hotness are not necessarily making their rifles better for their needs.

[Casual Friday]

I think you could expand this to say that the vast majority of users don't have the training/skill/environment to fully appreciate much of the development beyond basic red dot sights.

Knowing the limitations of your training, skill, and environment are important, and knowing is half the battle(never turn down an opportunity to use a GI Joe reference).

I have explored LPVOs and came to the conclusion that a red dot is the best aiming solution for me. From my back porch, I can't see further than 75 yards in any direction. I have to walk out to the main road before I can even think about taking a shot beyond 100. I would have to walk to a connecting road in order to get a shot anywhere close to 200. We're into Mad Max/Boogaloo/SHTF/WROL/TEOTWAWKI scenarios now. There are places around here where a 300-400 yard shot would be feasible, but I can't fathom a reasonable scenario outside of the aforementioned Mad Max/Boogaloo/SHTF/WROL/TEOTWAWKI where myself or my family would be there and under attack. If I lived someplace wide open, that would be a different story.

[NH Shooter]

Folks who are copying the new sexy hotness are not necessarily making their rifles better for their needs.

Exactly this.

[rob_s]

Is this the thread where we post our pics of old-busted and say “still works for me” in the hopes that our refusal to update to the new-hotness somehow earns us internet kool kred?

I think we are supposed to include some commentary about “I never did see the point in [NEW THING] anyway”?

ETA more old-busted kred, it’s a big-pin 6933 from (iirc) the second batch sold at the time exclusivey through... was it Clyde Armory? Someone else? I have two

[ASH556]

Is this the thread where we post our pics of old-busted and say “still works for me” in the hopes that our refusal to update to the new-hotness somehow earns us internet kool kred?

I think we are supposed to include some commentary about “I never did see the point in [NEW THING] anyway”?

ETA more old-busted kred, it’s a big-pin 6933 from (iirc) the second batch sold at the time exclusivey through... was it Clyde Armory? Someone else? I have two

Funny how well that setup works, old and busted as it is.