9mm fmj vs 45 fmj performance?

[john c]

Can someone point me to a resource for 9mm fmj vs 45 ACP fmj performance comparison?

Various sources I have mention the wound channels are similar, but don't have any specifics.

[the Schwartz]

Can someone point me to a resource for 9mm fmj vs 45 ACP fmj performance comparison?

Various sources I have mention the wound channels are similar, but don't have any specifics.

Any difference in terminal performance between a .45ACP and a 9mm Luger FMJRN is likely to be over-shadowed by shot placement (and what a specific FMJ hits) and other effects (e.g.: psychological state and the presence of pharmaceuticals in a given individual's body) before the minor difference in the projectiles' cross-sectional area and the tissue damage that they produce becomes important enough to matter.

The only legitimate comparison (in validated 10% concentration ordnance gelatin) that I am aware of between a .45 FMJRN and 9mm FMJRN exists on the Black Hills ammunition website and is composed of these two images:

9mm Luger 115-grain FMJ:



.45 ACP 230-grain FMJRN:



Take from these images what you will.

[03RN]

Ive had a 9mm nato deflect off a fisher cat skull at close range and exit out the tail. 147 fp-fmj seem to do better.

.45 ball seems to work better through barriers like deer shoulders.

[john c]

Charles;

Thank you. That's what I was looking for.

03RN;

Thank you. Your reference about the FP round brings up an interesting point. Apparently, the original Imperial German 9mm round was a FP, but was changed in WW1. From what we know today, from Keith and similar writers, it seems like the FP round would have been a much better choice for the NATO round in service use. It's kind of like a half wadcutter design.

[BehindBlueI's]

If we're assuming bulk FMJ, the biggest differences I saw was with barriers. 9mm tended to fragment too early, especially through auto glass. .45 held together better and if it did shed it's jacket and start to break apart the pieces were bigger so they still penetrated further then the 9mm pieces. Both did weird things hitting car sheet metal at angles, sometimes penetrating, sometimes deflecting. Both could ride ribs or skulls at the right angles.

[Duelist]

Tough old mesquite stump: .45 ACP 230gr FMJ bounced off or stuck to the surface. 9mm 115gr FMJ penetrated several inches.

Only time I’ve fired them at the same penetration resisting thing at the same time. Probably not significant of anything, but I found it interesting.

Federal 9BP will punch through a dead range cow’s heaviest leg bones.

Redneck penetration tests: what do they actually signify, anyway?

[the Schwartz]

Simply for the sake of further perspective, there is also a test image of a .380ACP 100-grain FMJRN on the Black Hills ammunition website, that demonstrates equally unremarkable performance in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin.





Evaluating all three FMJRNs using the US Army BRL P_[I/H] model (which remains part of the ORCA ballistic insult subroutine contained within the MUVES-S2 combat system SLV (survivability/lethality/vulnerability) software package), there appears to be little difference among the three FMJRNs. see: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a513848.pdf


For the purpose of making an ''apples-to-apples'' comparison, computed P_[I/H] values (using manufacturer published velocities) are shown for each test as probabilities of incapacitation occurring within a 30-second time-frame:


.380 ACP 100-grain FMJRN at 850 fps P_[I/H] = 55.047%



9mm Luger 115-grain FMJRN at 1,150 fps P_[I/H] = 65.831%



.45ACP 230-grain FMJRN at 850 fps P_[I/H] = 65.615%



Again, take from these images what you will.

[Lost River]

I have shot a LOT of animals with .45 ball. Not as many with 9mm ball. Probably less than a 100.

Examples/observation. Often a jackrabbit will take a hit with a 230 grain FMJ then jump, then run off into the brush and disappear with barely any effect. Unless you hit something structural/CNS. However, if you switch to a simple semi wadcutter, the difference is substantially different. It cookie cutters a hole into them, and bores a bullet diameter hole through them. That usually flattens them DRT.

Same thing applies with 9mm.

Here is a rabbit shot with a 9mm ball round. Note there is pretty much no damage externally. This one expired because it was CNS'ed based on the bang flop and feeling him afterward (broken spine/right at the back of the head).



.45 is a pretty effective at breaking heavy bones and continuing on, but the wound channels are not at all impressive. It certainly is effective, but permanent meat damage is minimal.

If I have FMJ on board, I usually go for head shots if possible.

Same holds true for putting down large animals. I use the ear hole to eye hole method. I put the bullet in through the close ear hole in an intended path that would have it exit the opposite side eye. This has worked for me for years (killing vehicle struck animals, cattle horses, elk deer, etc.) Last year I believe I mention that I killed a cow elk that had just been struck by a vehicle in front of me on my way to my cabin.

The 2 gentlemen who were driving the truck that struck her that were from the city had nothing more than a pocket knife between the two of them and that cow was going to kick and injure both if they even tried to put her down. Anyways, with this method of "ear hole to eye hole", a .22 to will drop the biggest animal out there (if you can shoot).

In regards to gel blocks that people always show, I don't have any real experience. I just shoot critters.













@Malamute

I recall that Malamute has had similar results in reference to the subject.

[Lost River]

Here is that pic.

Ear hole to eye hole.

You can see where the bullet exited, and she was given a painless, merciful death. You can also see her front quarter where she was struck.



Interesting note. I did not have a tarp with me, as I was going to salvage a couple of hind quarters. I ran into the little town of Arco Idaho (the first town in the world to be powered by atomic energy) to get one, and when I returned 20 minutes later, the entire animal was gone.

Your typical cow is roughly 500 pounds. My guess is that one of the farmers/ranchers who was checking cows came upon her and hoisted her onto their flatbed or into a stock trailer and took her back to the house. No matter, as long as someone salvaged the meat. That's over 100 pounds of elk steaks. Not to mention the back straps.

[the Schwartz]

I have shot a LOT of animals with .45 ball. Not as many with 9mm ball. Probably less than a 100.

Examples/observation. Often a jackrabbit will take a hit with a 230 grain FMJ then jump, then run off into the brush and disappear with barely any effect. Unless you hit something structural/CNS. However, if you switch to a simple semi wadcutter, the difference is substantially different. It cookie cutters a hole into them, and bores a bullet diameter hole through them. That usually flattens them DRT.

Same thing applies with 9mm.

Here is a rabbit shot with a 9mm ball round. Note there is pretty much no damage externally. This one expired because it was CNS'ed based on the bang flop and feeling him afterward (broken spine/right at the back of the head).



.45 is a pretty effective at breaking heavy bones and continuing on, but the wound channels are not at all impressive. It certainly is effective, but permanent meat damage is minimal.

If I have FMJ on board, I usually go for head shots if possible.

Same holds true for putting down large animals. I use the ear hole to eye hole method. I put the bullet in through the close ear hole in an intended path that would have it exit the opposite side eye. This has worked for me for years (killing vehicle struck animals, cattle horses, elk deer, etc.) Last year I believe I mention that I killed a cow elk that had just been struck by a vehicle in front of me on my way to my cabin.

The 2 gentlemen who were driving the truck that struck her that were from the city had nothing more than a pocket knife between the two of them and that cow was going to kick and injure both if they even tried to put her down. Anyways, with this method of "ear hole to eye hole", a .22 to will drop the biggest animal out there (if you can shoot).

In regards to gel blocks that people always show, I don't have any real experience. I just shoot critters.













@Malamute

I recall that Malamute has had similar results in reference to the subject.

Your experience in the field appears to agree strongly with the gelatin test results and analyses above. At least in animal test subjects of various sizes, it seems that there is precious little difference in the terminal performance of 9mm and .45 ball.

Interesting note. I did not have a tarp with me, as I was going to salvage a couple of hind quarters. I ran into the little town of Arco Idaho (the first town in the world to be powered by atomic energy) to get one, and when I returned 20 minutes later, the entire animal was gone.

Evidently, she ''got better''.