MId-80's Pre-Glock Hotness?

[HCM]

Attachment 52780

This thread is bringing back a lot of memories. Unearthed from the basement is the shot (allegedly) heard round the gun world. What I can't find is my copy of:

https://www.amazon.com/Glock-America...s%2C146&sr=8-1

...which talks about Kokalis' and Karl Walters's trip to Austria and that article.

That's my first handgun purchase (slightly updated now) with it...that was in the early 90s. It took me quite a while to save for it (pretty broke, and cars and gals higher on the priority list). I was all in on the Beretta from the start, as I was pretty sure Uncle Sammy would be loaning me one of his at some point. Hollywood was the icing on the cake, though. That was my only pistol for probably a decade.

Also reminding me of how much things have changed...I can remember riding my bike as an early teen to the surplus store that sold Soldier of Fortune, and eagerly eating that stuff up. We are very fortunate to have P-F (and P-T, which brought me here) and a few others that show the net at its best as a source of info. The mods do suck, tho...

So what was the tipping point for the Glock-centric world we're in now, where new buyers see Glock as the Go To?

ETA: I realized in the course of this that P-F (as usual) has "been there before". Hat tip to @Lyonsgrid ...see his post #39 in this thread for full article (there's some others in there, as well):

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-Article/page4

What made Glock a player in the law-enforcement world, at least initially was ATF classifying the Glock safe action as DAO. This helped some large departments that issued DAO revolvers like DC metro and Miami to transition to autos while still officially keeping a DAO gun. At that time, the late 80s DAO auto loader’s were not yet common.

Second thing that helped was the introduction of the Glock 19 to compete with the Smith 669 and the Sig P228 as a midsize one gun for everything gun.

Third thing was cost. The reason everyone makes polymer frame guns now is they are cheap to make. When Glocks were first introduced to the US they wanted to price them low, like $200 apiece. And industry consultant and sales rep they hired convince them not to because it was cheap in their brand. However this gave Glock a lot of room to cut prices to agencies in order to gain market share. It is also probably why a blue label Glock today cost about the same as I paid for my first Glock 19 in 1992.

What really put Glock ahead of the pack though was 40 Smith & Wesson and the 1994 assault weapons ban. Glock had a 40 Smith & Wesson pistol ready to go for the California highway patrol trials And CHP was the first agency to adopt the 40 Smith & Wesson. In fact I believe Glock with selling 40 caliber guns commercially before Smith.

There were sort of two waves in the law-enforcement conversion from revolvers to Autos. The first wave went from revolvers to 9 mm and 45 auto’s, The second wave went from revolvers straight to 40 caliber.

For first wave agencies that went to 9 mm the assault weapons ban made their pre-ban guns and especially pre-been magazines particularly valuable on the used market. Glock approach these agencies and offered to do 1 to 1 trades of new Glock 40 caliber pistols and magazines for the agencies old pre-ban guns and magazines. Glock was then able to sell the trade and guns and mags at a profit.

For the second wave agencies, Glock was able to offer very favorable pricing and trade-in value to get their foot in the door. They were also known for bringing LE decision makers to Atlanta for factory tours that often included trips to the champagne room at the Atlanta gold club. Allegedly...

The other thing that brought many first and second wave agencies to Glock was the FBI adoption of 40 caliber Glock’s in 1996 or 97. Like state police agencies within their states the FBI has a lot of influence on what agencies, particularly smaller agencies model in terms of professional standards. A lot of this has to do with the FBI national Academy program which is a professional development program for Mid-level law-enforcement leadership. It also acts as a networking opportunity for both the participants and the FBI but that is a whole other discussion.

Whether good or bad many people will make buying decisions based on what the police and the military are using. Once Glock got a majority of the law enforcement market, their commercial sales were sure to follow. Similar to what I said was smart to practically give the military the M 17/18 at cost since they will make up the difference on the back end in commercial and nostalgia sales.

The final thing that helped Glock was the fact that their timing was good. They came on the market right at the time lawn Forssman was looking to transition from revolver’s to Otto’s and they came on the market in a time when the Internet and widespread dissemination of information was not yet common. For example, all the outrage over the SIGP320 drop safety fiasco and Sigg initially denying it followed by the “upgrade, not a recall” program. Well, some people know that the original clocks had black internal parts and were upgraded to Chromed parts after an extensive “upgrade not a recall” program in the early 90s. What a lot of people don’t know is that early Glock’s were not 100% drop safe and the upgrade not a recall was due to Glock pistols failing drop safety testing during the DEA trials in the early 1990s.

[Gater]

The other thing that brought many first and second wave agencies to Glock was the FBI adoption of 40 caliber Glock’s in 1996 or 97. Like state police agencies within their states the FBI has a lot of influence on what agencies, particularly smaller agencies model in terms of professional standards. A lot of this has to do with the FBI national Academy program which is a professional development program for Mid-level law-enforcement leadership. It also acts as a networking opportunity for both the participants and the FBI but that is a whole other discussion.

That is the event I had in mind as the tipping point.

[HCM]

That is the event I had in mind as the tipping point.

Tough to say between that and the 40 Cal/1994AWB.

Prior to modern ammo .40 performed better than both 9and 45 on things like vehicles and it fit in 9mm sized guns. As for the FBI adopting, although modern bonded and equivalent 9 mm ammo was coming online by the late 90s it was hard for the FBI to go to Congress and ask for a bunch of money to buy 9 mm pistols after blaming Miami shoot out failures on a 9 mm silver tip that failed To perform. 45 and 10 mm were non-starters for general issue based on gun size as the 1076 demonstrated. Love it or hate it giving plainclothes personnel a gun the size of a box of Wheaties And asking them to conceal it and carry 16 hours a day is not a formula for success.

[O4L]

The final thing that helped Glock was the fact that their timing was good. They came on the market right at the time lawn Forssman was looking to transition from revolver’s to Otto’s and they came on the market in a time when the Internet and widespread dissemination of information was not yet common.

Yep.

[LockedBreech]

Tough to say between that and the 40 Cal/1994AWB.

Prior to modern ammo .40 performed better than both 9and 45 on things like vehicles and it fit in 9mm sized guns. As for the FBI adopting, although modern bonded and equivalent 9 mm ammo was coming online by the late 90s it was hard for the FBI to go to Congress and ask for a bunch of money to buy 9 mm pistols after blaming Miami shoot out failures on a 9 mm silver tip that failed To perform. 45 and 10 mm were non-starters for general issue based on gun size as the 1076 demonstrated. Love it or hate it giving plainclothes personnel a gun the size of a box of Wheaties And asking them to conceal it and carry 16 hours a day is not a formula for success.

I really, really don't feel like .40 gets its proper historical credit. In 2020 9mm has rightfully taken its place as the primary serious caliber, but 20 years ago before HST, before Gold Dot, before PDX1 and Critical Duty, .40 fit a niche 9mm was doing substandard work in.

[TDA]

In my hood the 3913 was the shiz before the G19 got trusted.

Before that 1911 or 2.5" K frame for the camera vest crowd. But really the J was most recommended and most carried.

Popo was flexin S&W autos.

The first thing I bought on my brand new (town) pistol permit was an “As-NIB” 3913NL, with a Bianchi Pistol Pocket and a spare mag pouch. I still think that’s a great design. I did have a 92SB, and then a Glock 23 in the blade tech kydex in that period when Cher and I believed in life after love. (There was an Onion article about miners confirming that that song could be heard at the center of the earth- 1999?)

[HCM]

I really, really don't feel like .40 gets its proper historical credit. In 2020 9mm has rightfully taken its place as the primary serious caliber, but 20 years ago before HST, before Gold Dot, before PDX1 and Critical Duty, .40 fit a niche 9mm was doing substandard work in.

Yes, 9 mm GHP of that era would either separate the core from the jacket or fragment when passing through intermediate barriers. And 45 ACP is good at many things but penetration, there’s not really one of them. In fact, 18 rounds of 45 caliber duty ammo failing to penetrate the cab of an 18 wheeler is what finally pushed the Texas highway patrol from the Sig P220 in 45 to the 357 sig.

[ECVMatt]

Great thread; brings back lots of memories!

I will throw out the Walther P88 and the Steyr GB. Both of those were pretty popular in my area.

We also had some IMI Jericho's that came in a combo pack with a 9x19 upper and a 41 AE upper. Those were pretty cool.

[Baldanders]

What made Glock a player in the law-enforcement world, at least initially was ATF classifying the Glock safe action as DAO. This helped some large departments that issued DAO revolvers like DC metro and Miami to transition to autos while still officially keeping a DAO gun. At that time, the late 80s DAO auto loader’s were not yet common.

Second thing that helped was the introduction of the Glock 19 to compete with the Smith 669 and the Sig P228 as a midsize one gun for everything gun.

Third thing was cost. The reason everyone makes polymer frame guns now is they are cheap to make. When Glocks were first introduced to the US they wanted to price them low, like $200 apiece. And industry consultant and sales rep they hired convince them not to because it was cheap in their brand. However this gave Glock a lot of room to cut prices to agencies in order to gain market share. It is also probably why a blue label Glock today cost about the same as I paid for my first Glock 19 in 1992.

What really put Glock ahead of the pack though was 40 Smith & Wesson and the 1994 assault weapons ban. Glock had a 40 Smith & Wesson pistol ready to go for the California highway patrol trials And CHP was the first agency to adopt the 40 Smith & Wesson. In fact I believe Glock with selling 40 caliber guns commercially before Smith.

There were sort of two waves in the law-enforcement conversion from revolvers to Autos. The first wave went from revolvers to 9 mm and 45 auto’s, The second wave went from revolvers straight to 40 caliber.

For first wave agencies that went to 9 mm the assault weapons ban made their pre-ban guns and especially pre-been magazines particularly valuable on the used market. Glock approach these agencies and offered to do 1 to 1 trades of new Glock 40 caliber pistols and magazines for the agencies old pre-ban guns and magazines. Glock was then able to sell the trade and guns and mags at a profit.

For the second wave agencies, Glock was able to offer very favorable pricing and trade-in value to get their foot in the door. They were also known for bringing LE decision makers to Atlanta for factory tours that often included trips to the champagne room at the Atlanta gold club. Allegedly...

The other thing that brought many first and second wave agencies to Glock was the FBI adoption of 40 caliber Glock’s in 1996 or 97. Like state police agencies within their states the FBI has a lot of influence on what agencies, particularly smaller agencies model in terms of professional standards. A lot of this has to do with the FBI national Academy program which is a professional development program for Mid-level law-enforcement leadership. It also acts as a networking opportunity for both the participants and the FBI but that is a whole other discussion.

Whether good or bad many people will make buying decisions based on what the police and the military are using. Once Glock got a majority of the law enforcement market, their commercial sales were sure to follow. Similar to what I said was smart to practically give the military the M 17/18 at cost since they will make up the difference on the back end in commercial and nostalgia sales.

The final thing that helped Glock was the fact that their timing was good. They came on the market right at the time lawn Forssman was looking to transition from revolver’s to Otto’s and they came on the market in a time when the Internet and widespread dissemination of information was not yet common. For example, all the outrage over the SIGP320 drop safety fiasco and Sigg initially denying it followed by the “upgrade, not a recall” program. Well, some people know that the original clocks had black internal parts and were upgraded to Chromed parts after an extensive “upgrade not a recall” program in the early 90s. What a lot of people don’t know is that early Glock’s were not 100% drop safe and the upgrade not a recall was due to Glock pistols failing drop safety testing during the DEA trials in the early 1990s.

I wonder if 320s would be way more dominant now if we had no Internet. Maybe Smith would put out a new modular gun that even a buddling 16 year old gun nut could see was a patent violation.

I remember a crusty old gun shop employee at the LNGS in 89-90 who looked like he was about to shit a brick over a Sigma because he hated it so much. He also thought .40 was an uneeded caliber. Cool guy.

[fatdog]

Great thread.

Brings back memories...

Boy does it!

In 1984 an armed robbery of a Pizza guy in the breezeway of my condo in Homewood, AL (Birmingham suburb) changed my life. I watched through the peep hole in my door after I heard it all go down. At the time I only owned a S&W Victory model in .38 S&W (not .38 Special) which was in my hand. Would I have opened the door an opened fire if it had gone bad? Yes, probably crazy stupid, but it was over in about a minute and the perp was gone.

This immediately got me questioning my sole handgun, which I had been in my family since about 1950. The gun mags of the time were the only source of information for people like me outside LE. I upgraded to a S&W 681 which I still own because as an young EMT and later paramedic in Western KY I had bought into the lore an worship of the .357 125 JHP from all the KY state troopers I worked with. The gun mags (particularly Mas writings) influenced me by the mid 80's to own a Sig P228, a SW 649, 645, and an early heel release P220 as well. However I CCW'ed and S&W 65 3" most of the time until my P228 took over.

My first formal training class was LFI 1, and I shot it with a P220 but finished 3rd in my class behind a guy with a Glock 19 which was the latest hotness. That got me wondering about the Glock, because.

I bought a G17 and decided to shoot the shit out of it to learn about the thing and realized all the advantages the platform offered. I shot my subsequent LFI 2 & 3 classes with a Glock and performed much better. Dr. William April beat me out for first place in my LFI 3 class and that was only because (in my ego driven mind) he was shooting a 1911 and I had a G31 in .357 Sig at that class. But I sure as shit nailed the flingerdinger targets in the dark, and got that 100 yard plate on my first shot.

My recollection of the mid-80's hotness has been described here for sure.

I found the Gen 2 & 3 S&W guns to be very reliable, but a little bit harder to shoot than the DA/SA Sig tribe. Regardless of the caliber. My nod would always go to the P220/P226/P228 tribe over the S&W Gen 2 or Gen 3 tribe based on shootability. Either was superior to the service sized S&W DA revolvers.

The 9mm Glocks were easier to shoot than any platform except the 1911. HK only made obscure weird shit in that era. The CZ 75, Walther P1 were expensive unobtainium stuff in my AO. The Beretta 92 and Taurus 92 which got popular because of the Beretta win on the DoD front were not the platforms where performance was found. Worked, but sucked as a DA/SA platform compared to the competition. The Steyr GB was probably the sleeper in that era. But those most of those guns were "bedside guns" for people like me because they were so hard to conceal, like trying to hide a box of Wheaties.

All kinds of shit that appeared in the Guns and Ammo annual catalog was never seen in the flesh in that era. We had print copies of the Shotgun News, but there was no internet and certainly nothing like Gunbroker.

I don't know about the influences in the LE world, but it is impossible to overstate the influence that the best magazines of that era had particularly the writings of the guys like Mas who reeked credibility and logic....