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Thread: Who still carries a J Frame? Why?

  1. #91
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    https://blog.hsoi.com/2010/03/01/aar...claude-werner/

    Here's an AAR I wrote for Concealed Carry Magazine after the class with Claude, that Hsoi mentions. It's vanished behind some pay wall or deleted:

    Close Encounters of the Snubby Kind

    Glenn E. Meyer, PhD

    The first gun I purchased was an Smith and Wesson 442 – a J frame Centennial with a shrouded hammer. I bought the 442 as it was a nice sized package and easy to conceal. Guess what, it was harder to shoot than a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol.
    That’s probably what many snubby users have found. Great to carry, easy to conceal, appealing to women shooters and a tough gun to use. It’s seemly difficult to aim given the typical minimal sights and substantial recoil with common defensive 38 SPL rounds and a bear if you have one in 357 Magnum.
    Thus, when I had the chance I took a snubby class in Texas. KRTraining brought Claude Werner to teach a two day class. Training never hurts and when you carry an instrument of lethal force, it is a responsibility to learn how to use it.
    Claude Werner is one of a small group that teaches specific snubby revolver use. That’s surprising, when so many people carry them. While some folks are of the view that practicing with a full sized revolver will transfer skills successfully to a snubby, research in other domains suggests skill learning can be very platform specific. Claude is master level IDPA shooter and for 5 years was chief instructor at the Rogers Shooting School. He was also an analyst for the U.S. Army and brings formidable research skills to bear on the issues of defensive firearms usage.
    The class was divided into two days. The first was on basic use of the snubby platform. The second was more advanced skills, applying them in FOF scenarios and Claude’s take on some of the most popular bit of ‘gun lore’ don’t stand up to skilled statistical or logical analysis.
    First, equipment as gun folk love to discuss that. Everyone in class shot a 5 shot 38 SPL of some kind. Claude told us to bring a significant amount of practice ammo and a smaller amount of carry ammo. The predominant manufacturer was Smith and Wesson in a Centennial pattern – 642, 442, 640s and some of the lighter weight guns. Claude shot a Taurus also at times and Karl Rehn (the host) tried out a Charter Arms snub. All of the guns ran. For my part, I shot my pre-lock 642 with a Crimson Trace 405 Laser grip (but didn’t use that). For ammo, I shot Winchester WinClean 125 GR. 38 SPL JSP for most of the class. The carry ammo wasSpper Gold Dot 38 SPL+P 135 GR GDHP – which was designed for snubby guns. Despite shooting about 150 rounds each day, I didn’t beat up my hand. This was in part due to the 405 grip having a recoil pad and Claude teaching us a cute trick of putting some padded athletic tap around the base of our strong hand thumb.
    The first day started with a lecture portion. Some of the crucial points are as follows. Snubbies have some advantages. They are easy for everyday carry – especially in your pocket. This makes concealment easy, reduces the risk of accidental disclosure and with a quality pocket holster – easy to draw. Given their small size, they are easier to retain. Dry fire is easy to accomplish. The downside is a limited ammo capacity without a more involved reload. The longer and heavier trigger pull takes some effort to master. Recoil can be significant – most folks train with lighter target loads. Claude told us that in some police revolver usages, the officers firing 357 Magnum ammo in a critical incident after training with 38 SPLs thought their guns had blown up.
    The majority of malfunctions can be resolved by pulling the trigger again – unlike most semiauto platforms. However, a rare but serious mechanical malfunction might not be correctable in real time. Common mechanical problems with revolvers, according to Claude, are bad ammo (primer placement), screws come loose, esp. problematic if they are the crane screws, powder gets under the ejector star, with light guns and heavy loads – the bullets can move out of correct placement and other fun things. These can be easily prevented by using a screwdriver, a toothbrush and putting quality ammo in your gun for the real deal. Shoot a significant number of rounds from a given brand before committing to it. Learning how to manipulate the trigger is important as to not short stroke it or not letting it out enough to rotated the cylinder.
    Another important equipment nuance had to do with sights, trigger/finger placement and grip. The shallow groove sight is a difficult one. If too much of the sight is out of the groove, you can throw the round high. It was recommend to paint the top of the sight to a level such that if you see the unpainted part, you have too much sight coming up. Semis are shot using the pad of the trigger finger but for the snubby, Claude teaches first knuckle on the trigger. Also, rather than the thumbs being parallel, the off hand thumb crosses over the strong hand thumb and grips. It is very important to keep fingers from the cylinder gap to keep those fingers on your hand.
    After lecture, it was time to shoot! The main practice target was the DEA DOT COMMAND TRAINING TARGET (with six 31/2” round and numbered dots in a 23 by 24” rectangle - http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=DEA+DOT) (see Figure Dot). We shot initially at 3 and 5 yards, reasonable distances for a personal defensive snubby usage. See Figure Claude, Dot and me.
    The initial drills were to get good hits on the small circles and the key to it was trigger control. First, we did a significant amount of dry fire to try to master the long and heavier revolver pull. After that, we moved to live rounds and and what is called a ‘ball and dummy drill”. The idea is that you shoot one or two rounds on command and then spin the cylinder. Thus, you don’t know when you will come up on an a spent round. It is a simple and clear diagnostic for a flinch and correcting your trigger control. Shooting at small targets at a realistic distance is accomplished by focusing on a small detail in the circle. That way, you hopefully will achieve some accuracy on the relevant target point of your adversary – say center of mass. It’s harder than just shooting at the center of the class B-27 target.
    We also practiced reloading with Claude showing up a method with the gun being upright on ejection such that gravity would aid in ejecting rounds. Reloading was accomplished with loose rounds, not speed loaders. The reason being that unless you carry a speed loader on your belt (which seems unlikely for the pocket carry typical of snubbies), you might be reloading from loose rounds. Why – many folks carry a speed loader in their pocket and they are know to release their rounds into your change and keys. Claude showed us how a dime can jam a speed loader. We held the loose rounds in pocket formed in our left hands and tried to put two rounds at a time into the J frame’s cylinder. Two rounds fit easily into two adjacent chambers in the cylinder.
    One neat trick, if one used a speed trip was to load 4 rounds. Claude recommended using 4 rounds in a staggered manner of two, space and two. Why! You can have six in a strip. This is because, if you have to reload a snubbie, you are in serious trouble and you better do it quick. The gun’s max is 5, so the sixth round is just in the way for a quick reload. If you load 4, you can hold it with the space such that you can quickly reload two chambers and then the next two and get back into the fight. Otherwise, you end up peeling off the rounds one at a time. Thus, you are fighting faster. Makes sense.
    After many reps on the dot targets, we move to a human photographic target for a touch more realism. The target (http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=Q-ANT-A) had an evil doer pointed a gun at you (see Figure Bad guy). His vital anatomy was lightly outlined. The target was engaged at 5 and 7 yards, which seem to be realistic for the majority of close encounters of the snubby kind. To maintain tight groups with our newly practiced sight and trigger skills, Claude told us to focus on a small spot on the target. A button, shirt collar opening or the like. Surprise, we can shoot the gun accurately. We then finished the day by taking the Nevada Concealed Carry permit test using a B-21E-ant-a target (Figure B-21). The test consists of

    3 yards 5 rounds No time limit Freestyle
    5 yards 10 rounds No time limit Freestyle
    7 yards 10 rounds No time limit Freestyle

    One needs to score 70% and we all passed.
    The next day started with some rehearsal of skills but moved on to more advanced ones. We practiced shooting with the nondominant hand – something which is not consistently done by the casual practitioner. Issues are which eye to use? It is not hard to move the gun in line with your dominant eye. Why practice that why? It’s an example of a low probability but high impact contingency. It’s unlikely that a civilian will get into a gun fight and it’s unlikely you will lose the ability to use your dominant hand. However, it can happen. Years ago, I took a hard fall and broke my wrist and ribs. If it were a fight, my dominant hand was useless. Luckily, I had signed up for a whole course on injured shooter skills that occurred after the accident and I took the course with a cast on my wrist – what clever planning. We also practiced with just one hand and not the preferred two handed grip. Why? You never know if you have to manipulate a phone, flashlight, help someone, guide a kid or carry that bag of diamonds. In reality, I’d drop the later. Besides shooting with one hand, we practiced techniques to draw with your nondominant hand and reload with one hand. There are several techniques. One entails putting the gun between your legs and then establishing your shooting grip (Fig. Knees) here done by Justin Galindo, a KRtraining instructor. Others involve using your holster or pocket to rotate the gun and establish a grip.
    There was also a lecture component based on Claude’s analytic skills.

    Conclusion:

    A snubby easily fits into your pocket. They probably can handle most defensive gun use events. The single mugger or bizarre approaching stranger usually can be deterred or dealt with. Is it the optimal gun for the low probability, high intensity and severe consequences gun fight or rampage – no. It’s better than NO gun at all if you can’t avoid it. Some folks denigrate the smaller guns like snubbies and scorn the even tinier guns – mouse guns – in the trade. Claude told us of a relative who was being carjacked. As the miscreant came to the potential victim’s door – our good guy pointed a 22 caliber mouse gun at him and said : “Do you want it in the belly or the teeth?”. The bad guy left the scene. Claude, being analytically enabled, has collected more than 3000 civilian gun fights and concluded only 3 couldn’t have been resolved with a correctly used snubby.
    You can shoot snubbies decently with Claude’s training regime. Then get out and shoot the thing a lot. Dry fire at home (be careful!). Shoot it in an IDPA match and forget about time and reload strategies – shoot it well and righteously.

  2. #92
    Member wvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector71 View Post
    Very interesting thread. Just an observation, but the philosophy on gun carry expressed in this thread is no different than what Ken Hackathorn was writing about back in the 1980’s when a Government model 1911 was the “in thing” for a serious student of the self-defense pistol to be toting. Paraphrasing him, “ Everybody talks 1911, but carry a J-frame”. Funny how most of us have come to the same conclusion.
    Yes, and yet, no.
    LCR, rule 1 gun. Period. If I'm around the home place, or I'm so dressed down that a real gun isn't possible, it's a bare minimum.
    And, taking my cue from @blues, if I am leaving the home place in a vehicle, it's 2011 with/without LCR. Why both? Because like Bolke discussed in a podcast, if it's an in your face crime, like a mugging, that smooth AIWB draw probably ain't gonna happen. But having your hands in your pockets is perfectly normal, and your 1/3 on your way to having a vote in the outcome.
    "And for a regular dude I’m maybe okay...but what I learned is if there’s a door, I’m going out it not in it"-Duke
    "Just because a girl sleeps with her brother doesn't mean she's easy..."-Blues

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    For those saying it’s your check the mail gun, why not a glock 43 in the same dark star gear metal clip holster? I used to have a jframe but shot it very poorly and sold it. Couldn’t stand the milled groove rear sight.

    When the glock 43 came out I bought that DSG holster and it just clips to gym shorts no problem. I don’t have weight comparison to jframe though, is the jframe much lighter?

    A lot of really smart people seem to like jframes so I keep thinking maybe I made a mistake but I’m pretty happy with the 43 tbh.
    You can install a technaclip or clipdraw on a J frame, carry it in the same position that you would your glock, and not need a holster. I wouldn't carry a glock without something covering the trigger but im not so worried about that with a 642 due to how heavy the trigger is.

    While the 642 isnt much lighter than a g43 (I own both), it is much lighter than a g43 with a holster. You can feel a massive difference.

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by wvincent View Post
    Yes, and yet, no.
    LCR, rule 1 gun. Period. If I'm around the home place, or I'm so dressed down that a real gun isn't possible, it's a bare minimum.
    And, taking my cue from @blues, if I am leaving the home place in a vehicle, it's 2011 with/without LCR. Why both? Because like Bolke discussed in a podcast, if it's an in your face crime, like a mugging, that smooth AIWB draw probably ain't gonna happen. But having your hands in your pockets is perfectly normal, and your 1/3 on your way to having a vote in the outcome.
    This pretty much sums up my MO as well. Around the house and yard? J frame. Going for a run? J frame. Actually going sonewhere else? A glock 48 or 19. Sometimes the J frame comes along too.

  5. #95
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    So if one wanted a gym shorts, around the house pocket gun, what does one buy? The corona life has me not getting on pants and a belt 99% of the time so an easy pocket gun is on my radar.

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
    Any lightweight hammerless/spurless you choose. I'm quite happy with my LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    For those saying it’s your check the mail gun, why not a glock 43 in the same dark star gear metal clip holster? I used to have a jframe but shot it very poorly and sold it.
    Because I'm the opposite. Somewhat larger than average hands and nerve damage in my support hand, along with some crooked fingers on my strong hand from reconstruction. Shooting a G43 feels like I'm trying to hold it with chopsticks and I can't shoot it for shit. The Shield is the smallest semi-auto I've been able to feel like I can have a confident grip on. The rubber grip and shape of the grip on the LCR is much more confidence inspiring and the target/timer show that.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half Moon View Post
    I've got to eyeball a strip reload anyways and haven't had too much difficulty closing the cylinder with the empty chamber dead center while I have my eyes on it.
    Have you timed yourself with loading it full and closing it haphazard vs loading it down one and then having to close it with the given chamber where you want it?
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by wvincent View Post
    The Roger's LCR grip was absolutely the worst, in fact it was down right punishing. Which is strange because I love my Roger/Safariland grips on my K Frame.

    In fact, the Roger's grips suck so bad, I declined to Karma them away. It would be like a cruel, practical joke.
    I can't think of anyone here I would do that to.

    Hey, does @RevolverRob have an LCR?
    Asking for a friend.
    Oh that is funny. I tried that Rogers grip and 100% agree on the LCR. Horrid thing. Felt good in pocket is all.

  8. #98
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    I wish I could love the J-Frame. I am getting closer in that I have a 642-1. I installed an Apex kit which really helped the trigger and after about 1000 live and dry fires it is getting quite good, almost as good as an LCR out of the box. Both around 9lbs.

    The problem I have with the 642 and LCR is their weight and size. I can't hide either in my pocket very effectively and have tried a ton of holsters including Mika's. The only Rule 1 gun I can truly get along with 100% of the time: pants, work our shorts, pajamas, whatever is the lowly LCP. It is remarkably shootable, but unfortunately plagued with marginal ballistics and spotty reliability. But I will have it on me 100% of the time.

    Weights loaded:
    LCP: 12.0oz
    340PD: 14.4oz (+20% -2 rounds)
    LCR .38: 16.2oz (+35% -2 rounds)
    642: 16.3oz (+36% -2 rounds)

  9. #99
    Member eb07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinmove_ View Post
    How in the world are you carrying an LCR with CT laser grips in a front pocket?



    What grips are you running on your LCR in a front pocket? I'd love to pick up an LCR next as the ergos fit me better and I like having better front sight options than my 442, but the lack of G10 boot grips for the LCR is irritating at best.
    So... about those LCR grips. I don't want to hijack the thread but here is what I did for my KLCR.... modified the aftermarket boot grip with a dremel, a soldering iron, and some grip tape to my liking.

    The angle is not the same but I put in finger grooves and shaped it to make it more J boot like. Bottom line is the LCR is ugly to begin with so I proceeded with no fear of making it look any worse and if I screwed up I was out a whole 30 bucks

    I don't carry much anymore as I like the smith airweight trigger and weight but here she is next to my 442 for comparison:















  10. #100
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    So if one wanted a gym shorts, around the house pocket gun, what does one buy? The corona life has me not getting on pants and a belt 99% of the time so an easy pocket gun is on my radar.

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
    In the FWIW Dept: Gun noob here. Went to the LGS to fondle a G43, convinced it was going to be my new small carry. At least until I rented one and shot a box of ammo through it. Thing bucked and squirmed more than a pig trying to avoid a one-way trip to Hard 8 Barbecue.

    Ended up lusting after J Frames. Held several. Ooh'd and Aah'd over a bunch in the store. Settled on a M&P 340PD. I was making moves with my credit card, when I thought, hey, I should shoot one of these. Again, local gun shop. Airweight rental. Regular .38 ammo. Holy cow. I am not recoil averse but there was no way I was going to survive using it as a training gun.

    Started paying attention to experienced revolver people. Noticed several comments about the LCR. Looked at them online. Wow. Uglier than a bag of hammers. A sale on CDNN arrived in my mailbox, so in a rare What the Hell?! moment, I bought a LCR .357. You know what? It shot fine. And using WCs it was actually - fun. After a year or so I traded it for a .38 LCR - same gun, but 13 oz vs. 18 oz and since I was shooting WCs anyway, worked about the same. I think "at this point" my LCR (stock except for a big dot) in .38 is a perfect complement to my G19 (training) and G43X (carry). Its my gun when I am not carrying a gun, gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by wvincent View Post
    I should have been a little more detailed: Big Dot Front Sight, CT laser grips. I went round and round on grips for the LCR, CT's worked the best. Actually, if the laser quit, I would still use them. The Roger's LCR grip was absolutely the worst, in fact it was down right punishing. Which is strange because I love my Roger/Safariland grips on my K Frame.

    In fact, the Roger's grips suck so bad, I declined to Karma them away. It would be like a cruel, practical joke.
    I can't think of anyone here I would do that to.

    Hey, does @RevolverRob have an LCR?
    Asking for a friend.
    Can you post a link to these grips? I tried a pair of aftermarket boot grips but ended up removing them because the LCR fit fine in my pocket with the OEM grips, and the boot grips were hard to shoot. I am not asking for them, just interested in what they were.

    EDIT: Are they these?

    https://www.revolversonly.com/2018/1...-lcr-grip.html

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    In larger Glock 19 sized pistols carried on the belt 3.5 ounces or 1/2" here and there isn't much of a difference.
    In pocket sized handguns 3.5 ounces and 1/2" is significant.

    I can instantly feel the difference between a 340PD and a M&P340 in my pocket and that's only a 1 ounce difference, a 442 feels like a brick in comparison with it's additional 3 ounces over the PD.
    Sir yes sir. The difference between an LCR. 357 and LCR .38 is very noticeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    The only difference between the 442 and 642 is the material used for the cylinder?

    442 - carbon
    642 - stainless

    Might need to get into another caliber because it doesn't seem like there are many 9mm options for a small J frame?
    The thing about .38 is that you feel cool when you are loading the rounds, one by one, into the cylinder, like a boss. A 9mm J-frame? Pfft, you don't want a revolver in one of those Euro-Sausage calibers.

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