Glocks and Limpwristing Concerns

[GlorifiedMailman]

A few months ago I was in a pistol class where there were 2 new shooters as students. They both were using Glock 19 Gen 5s. I noticed that they both were continually having limp wrist-related stoppages, though they were quickly corrected. I didn't think anything of it at the time; they were new shooters who were still learning the ropes. Fast forward to this weekend. An LEO I am personally familiar with was unfortunate enough to be in an OiS incident. Fortunately, it was very cut and dry and he was cleared for duty a few days later. He was uninjured during the incident, but he remarked that he did encounter a malfunction with his Glock 17. Last night I was able to watch the footage, and it looked like he had to pull himself back behind a wall's corner as he was firing an aimed shot off. It looked like the motion of his strong hand moving backward (he was firing one handed) as the gun was cycling caused the type of stoppage that limpwristing also causes. This officer was no doubt extremely experienced; the stoppage wasn't caused by something he did wrong so much as just the chaotic nature of the incident and having to move his hand back at an inopportune time. He immediately cleared it and safely resolved the incident.

There's no question that polymer-framed pistols with very low-mass, lightweight frames are more susceptible to limp wrist-type jams than their heavier-framed counterparts. It seems that by and large we all look at it as a training issue, purely the shooter's fault. It got me thinking, though, that I could see instances in an OiS or DGU where such a shot might take place, regardless of the skill level of the shooter. Injured hand(s), shots taken from less-than-ideal positions, shots taken on the move, etc. It can and does happen. It makes me wonder whether the Glock's susceptibility to limpwristing is more of a reliability concern than most recognize it as. Should this be acceptable in a duty or self defense pistol? If so, why? I know all pistols can jam, but there's no doubt a pistol that is less likely to jam is more desirable than one more likely to. I carry a Glock every single day and have for years. I've never encountered a limpwrist-related stoppage. But I can't help but wonder if, should I ever have to actually use my pistol to defend myself, I might be in an unlucky enough situation where a limpwrist-type jam is likely enough to be a danger. Thoughts?

[porkster]

Polymer strikers, especially g19 sized, are certainly the most common self defense pistols. Even in some first time shooting classes, I did not see many people limp wristing pistols to have constant jamming. The majority of heavy guns are going to be hammer fired and I'm not sure those would be a better option for someone new to shooting.

Otherwise the Walther Q4 is going to be one popular gun..

[Totem Polar]

Data point of one, but, I do not remember ever having a malf with a 9mm Glock on the range. I have experienced trouble in classes more than once though, eg., otherwise-reliable gen 3 G17 that wouldn’t run well upside down in the rain with rainwater running up my nose and inside my glasses. Point being, I find your theory believable.

[Navin Johnson]

A few months ago I was in a pistol class where there were 2 new shooters as students. They both were using Glock 19 Gen 5s. I noticed that they both were continually having limp wrist-related stoppages, though they were quickly corrected. I didn't think anything of it at the time; they were new shooters who were still learning the ropes. Fast forward to this weekend. An LEO I am personally familiar with was unfortunate enough to be in an OiS incident. Fortunately, it was very cut and dry and he was cleared for duty a few days later. He was uninjured during the incident, but he remarked that he did encounter a malfunction with his Glock 17. Last night I was able to watch the footage, and it looked like he had to pull himself back behind a wall's corner as he was firing an aimed shot off. It looked like the motion of his strong hand moving backward (he was firing one handed) as the gun was cycling caused the type of stoppage that limpwristing also causes. This officer was no doubt extremely experienced; the stoppage wasn't caused by something he did wrong so much as just the chaotic nature of the incident and having to move his hand back at an inopportune time. He immediately cleared it and safely resolved the incident.

There's no question that polymer-framed pistols with very low-mass, lightweight frames are more susceptible to limp wrist-type jams than their heavier-framed counterparts. It seems that by and large we all look at it as a training issue, purely the shooter's fault. It got me thinking, though, that I could see instances in an OiS or DGU where such a shot might take place, regardless of the skill level of the shooter. Injured hand(s), shots taken from less-than-ideal positions, shots taken on the move, etc. It can and does happen. It makes me wonder whether the Glock's susceptibility to limpwristing is more of a reliability concern than most recognize it as. Should this be acceptable in a duty or self defense pistol? If so, why? I know all pistols can jam, but there's no doubt a pistol that is less likely to jam is more desirable than one more likely to. I carry a Glock every single day and have for years. I've never encountered a limpwrist-related stoppage. But I can't help but wonder if, should I ever have to actually use my pistol to defend myself, I might be in an unlucky enough situation where a limpwrist-type jam is likely enough to be a danger. Thoughts?

Is this a continuation of your fucking is a G21 reliable thread?

[YVK]

It makes me wonder whether the Glock's susceptibility to limpwristing is more of a reliability concern than most recognize it as. Should this be acceptable in a duty or self defense pistol? If so, why?

I don't think that Glocks are more susceptible to this problem. There are two reasons why I think so.

First, there shouldn't be any reason why they'll do it more frequently than other handguns of similar weights and materials - P320s, VP9s, etc. I think the reason why this is attributed to Glocks is because they are more common, more commonly used, more commonly used by shooters of various skills, and more commonly used in adverse shooting situations when either grip, stance or mechanics are suboptimal.

Second, my only encounter with this was with an all steel 1911 when I practiced shooting from a retention. My wrist was rock solid, a breakdown was at the level of my shoulder as I allowed me entire arm to move back and rob the gun of rigid enough shooting support.

So, I would want to have a controlled study before I believed that Glock is particularly vulnerable that way.

[HopetonBrown]

The one time I recall possibly having a limp wrist malfunction with a 9mm Glock was (for shits and giggles) shooting the CA POST instructor qualification where you shoot support side with both hands, behind a barricade.

[edison]

I can induce a limp-wristing malfunction on command with a brand new stock RSA in my glock17 gen4 using 130pf target ammo.

[JHC]

I don't think that Glocks are more susceptible to this problem. There are two reasons why I think so.

First, there shouldn't be any reason why they'll do it more frequently than other handguns of similar weights and materials - P320s, VP9s, etc. I think the reason why this is attributed to Glocks is because they are more common, more commonly used, more commonly used by shooters of various skills, and more commonly used in adverse shooting situations when either grip, stance or mechanics are suboptimal.

Second, my only encounter with this was with an all steel 1911 when I practiced shooting from a retention. My wrist was rock solid, a breakdown was at the level of my shoulder as I allowed me entire arm to move back and rob the gun of rigid enough shooting support.

So, I would want to have a controlled study before I believed that Glock is particularly vulnerable that way.

+1

I and others have tried to induce limp wristing malfs with many a Glock. Firing it with one hand, soft wrist and just a couple of fingers. I've never had any success replicating this alleged well known issue across multiple models of multiple generations.

I did see it when my relatively noob at the time younger son was shooting under Frank Proctor's tutelage. He replicated it twice in short order on a multiple target drill. Frank chastised him that he was not simply failing to execute "follow through" of his shots on a target he was actually snapping the gun (early Gen 4 G19 with the .40 weight RSA) backwards in some messed up mechanics of transitioning to the next target. Got that fixed pronto. Only time I heard Frank raise his voice. That takes some doing.

[LittleLebowski]

I suspect weaker ammo.

[BehindBlueI's]

When doing T&E for our now accomplished switch to 9mm, I was one of the 9mm Glock testers. I am not a Glock fan and carried my personal P226 at the time. This is said to point out I have no particular fanboi-ism in this fight. My particular gun had already been fired by several other testers and while I don't remember the exact round count it was more than 1k but less than 2k with no cleaning. I held it with the thumb and forefinger of my left hand only just below the trigger guard and pulled the trigger with my right hand while touching no other part of the gun. It fired 147gr and 124gr +P without issue. 115gr was not part of the test. I do not see limp wristing concerns at the range nor have we had an issue in the field.

I'm pretty well satisfied that with proper lube and ammunition limp wristing is not a particular concern with Gen 5/M 9mm Glocks. I suspect that applies across a much broader spectrum of Glocks but I'll only comment on what I'm familiar with.