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Thread: Nuances in grip

  1. #1

    Nuances in grip

    For years I’ve struggled with “cold” performance – my performance with my chosen handgun when I first start. Specifically, I find that depending on the conditions, my hands might need a little time to warm up before they’re ideally suited to run drills that demand a strong grip such as a bill drill. This is less than ideal for shooting on demand, especially in a defensive context. I have adequately strong hands (can close a CoC #2) to run the guns and loads I’m shooting.

    I will often ask about the following when I’m in a class or around other shooters better than myself:

    1. How do you apply your support hand to the gun in a manner than allows for consistency under speed? Do you index up under the trigger guard before rolling the hand back onto the gun for example? Or do you perhaps apply the portion of the hand that interfaces with the gun first and then wrap the fingers around over the strong hand?
    2. What portion of the support hand do you consider critical to have contact with the surface of the gun? I’ve traditionally rolled my elbows up and out to force the meat of my support hand (under the thumb) to press into the grip, but other shooters bring their elbows down and in to allow for more of the support hand further down at the base of the wrist to make contact.
    3. Do you apply any sort of isometric pressure to aid in keeping your hands together – a push-pull or an inward pressure?
    4. Do you consider grip enhancements such as tape or stippling a necessity?


    For the more experienced shooters on the board, mind providing your feedback to the questions above? Thanks in advance...

    Eric

  2. #2
    Member NGCSUGrad09's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Sorry for the long post, but the coffee has kicked in this morning and you're going to get some extra info from me today:

    To answer specifically (my responses in red):

    1 - How do you apply your support hand to the gun in a manner than allows for consistency under speed? Do you index up under the trigger guard before rolling the hand back onto the gun for example? Or do you perhaps apply the portion of the hand that interfaces with the gun first and then wrap the fingers around over the strong hand? When the support hand meets the gun, the hand is coming up so that the index finger makes contact with the underside of the trigger guard. Then the fingers wrap around and pull back, while the palm is filling the open are of the grip. Then the firing hand thumb locks over the top. It happens much more seamlessly and quicker than it takes to read it...and is something you can practice all the time until you get it right and it's second nature.

    2 - What portion of the support hand do you consider critical to have contact with the surface of the gun? I’ve traditionally rolled my elbows up and out to force the meat of my support hand (under the thumb) to press into the grip, but other shooters bring their elbows down and in to allow for more of the support hand further down at the base of the wrist to make contact. 360 degree contact with the grip. I don't have large hands so I try to fill as much as I can. Because everyone's anatomy is different, try both ways, record the results and see what actually works better. I can't shoot as well with super rolled elbows, especially if shooting all day. If I'm training someone, I like to tell people to go to their natural extensions without over-extension or forcing a hard position of the arms/wrists. You can firm up or be loose at that position to adapt to shooting or movement without modifying your grip/stance like rolling or locking elbows

    3 - Do you apply any sort of isometric pressure to aid in keeping your hands together – a push-pull or an inward pressure? I've found some of each, this will take some experimentation as everyone is different. What can you sustain and be consistent with? What do you need to exercise to make it better? Also know it's going to change. I don't shoot a slow group with the same amount as burning rounds quickly. A firm grip on the gun via hand pressure can be consistent. There are times I don't need to be super locked up with my torso/arms due to movement or other actions, versus sometimes I'll plant and firm up to take some shots.

    4 - Do you consider grip enhancements such as tape or stippling a necessity? These can absolutely make a difference. Depending on what the gun is used for might alter how much. Some guns are pretty good out of the box, but others could use some work. A match gun would have a lot of aggressive grip tape or texturing for me because of sweat, dirt, high round count stages. A carry gun will have much less and only in a few places that doesn't grab at my clothes or cause snagging during a concealed draw.

    A little zen thinking for performance on demand:

    Your on-demand, cold performance is going to vary depending upon anticipation and how much you've prepared that hour/day/week. Shooting a match or class with peer pressure/competitive spirit is different than self practice...is different than a critical incident or true surprise engagement. A match/class I know I'm going to be shooting and can mentally and physically prepare the day/week before. Practicing/training on the range is typically a little different as I know at some point that day I'm going to be shooting and want to do well, but I tend to not be focused on optimizing for peak performance as I'm usually planning what CoF to shoot, what guns am I bringing/am I working long guns/handguns, load development, or do I need to run other errands that day, go to work, what's for dinner, etc. A critical incident will most likely be "Surprise mo-fo" except for any mental awareness from avoidance/deterrence/preparation for a fight.

    All of that to say your training regime will affect all of these scenarios, but it's important to understand you're not going to perform the same all the time due to your own practice/health/energy levels, mental distractions, weather/environmental conditions/moon phase, etc. This is why having good practice to achieve good performance in an ideal or controlled situation will raise the bar when conditions/variables deteriorate. I want to be able to shoot well on demand such as tired and cold.. but I have accepted the fact and know I'm not going to run the gun as well when tired/cold/not prepared as if I was well rested, mentally prepared and focused on shooting. So that's where we focus on getting better, but how much better? How much of a difference is there? Through my own performance tracking over time and then anecdotally from some guys that I trust and respect from "real world" stuff have said half to 2/3 of your performance on a good day will be how you'll perform when things are not ideal or in dynamic incidents. For example your 1.5 second draw might be more like 3 seconds. Or your fist-sized group becomes an open-hand sized group. With that, take your recent, best performance standards and double the size of the group/time. If that measurement/result is not good enough for you, use it to adjust your training plan until that doubled amount becomes acceptable to you.

    For me, I have done best by focusing on mastery of the basics/simple executions in practice (particularly lots of dry-fire), then worry about how to best solve a shooting problem (in live-fire/matches/classes) and let my performance be what it is as a result of my preparations. Then use those results and refine what you need to practice some more. From a competitive shooting angle, this long-term and gradual improvement approach has worked better for me than trying to focus on every fine detail from grip to stance to everything else I could worry about, as then I was worried too much about little things that really didn't matter and missed big things like better stage planning. Once I let go of the fact that I don't have to draw the gun in .85 seconds or have super fast splits every time, I was able to open up to finding other tweaks and ways to save 3-4 seconds of movement or target transition savings or other things that have improved my overall shooting performance. This overall performance increase obviously helped in the action, but also mental confidence which has helped all other facets of my shooting.

    How does all of this apply to your grip and question? Find your ideal grip, learn it so that it becomes second nature, then understand that you're on a long term journey to overall improvement. You're always going to have "cold" performance levels and it's going to go up and down along the way, so do what can you do to increase your overall performance/ready condition. Find your standard, work to achieve and beat it.

  3. #3
    Member
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    Oct 2014
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    1. How do you apply your support hand to the gun in a manner than allows for consistency under speed? Do you index up under the trigger guard before rolling the hand back onto the gun for example? Or do you perhaps apply the portion of the hand that interfaces with the gun first and then wrap the fingers around over the strong hand?
      - I index under the trigger guard with my support hand, contacting the gun as low in the draw cycle as possible, and then roll the back of my hand onto the gun.

    2. What portion of the support hand do you consider critical to have contact with the surface of the gun? I’ve traditionally rolled my elbows up and out to force the meat of my support hand (under the thumb) to press into the grip, but other shooters bring their elbows down and in to allow for more of the support hand further down at the base of the wrist to make contact.
      -The heal/base of the thumb of my support hand is most critical. I try to have some of it on the side edge of a Glock back strap and some of it pressed into the side of the gun behind the slide release. I do roll my elbows outward to increase pressure into the grip. I close a 2.5 CoC, however, I am not as big of a believer in maximum grip strength as I used to be. I think having enough grip strength that the gun doesn't shift in your grip is critical, but I've been able to push my splits into the .13-.14 range on close open targets with a stock Glock trigger because my hands stay more relaxed. I do think having a high maximum grip force (i.e. closing a 2+ CoC) helps in that it takes much less effort to grip the gun hard enough that it doesn't shift at all in your hands. Locking your wrists is equally as critical for recoil control, and you can learn to independently lock your wrists without over squeezing the grip.

    3. Do you apply any sort of isometric pressure to aid in keeping your hands together – a push-pull or an inward pressure?
      - I do not do any push/pull and I don't know of any other high level US-based shooters who use the push/pull method, but Eric Grauffel uses this method, so take that for what it's worth. He also hooks his support hand index finger around the trigger guard.
    4. Do you consider grip enhancements such as tape or stippling a necessity?
      -I use skate tape for all my competition guns, however I don't think they are necessary for a carry gun. The normal grip of a Glock works for me unless my hands are excessively sweaty, but even then I can make it work.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter
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    Illinois
    With the excellent advice up here already by some highly skilled shooters, I've only got one thing to add.

    The part of the Support Hand pointer finger that interacts with the bottom of your trigger guard ought to be the part just distal to the metacarpal joint but proximal to the proximal interphalangeal joint.

    It should be the same when drawing, after reloading...all of it. Otherwise if you don't build your grip consistently, your grip strength won't be consistent, the way the gun tracks won't be consistent etc.

    Tim Herron taught me this and it made my recoil control better just like that. Chop into the trigger guard with that part of the finger every time. After draws, after reloads after any time your support hand breaks from the gun. Always.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    The part of the Support Hand pointer finger that interacts with the bottom of your trigger guard ought to be the part just distal to the metacarpal joint but proximal to the proximal interphalangeal joint.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    I need a pic!

  6. #6
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    I need an explanation. What on earth is a CoC #2, a 2.5 Coc, and a 2+ CoC? (Lord, save me from the texting abbreviation generation - lol)

    Dave

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    I need an explanation. What on earth is a CoC #2, a 2.5 Coc, and a 2+ CoC? (Lord, save me from the texting abbreviation generation - lol)

    Dave
    Captains of Crush. It’s a brand of grip training device. The numbers correspond to levels of resistance/difficulty in closing. Also, I suspect that Gio is not of the texting abbreviation generation, but I could be wrong.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    I need an explanation. What on earth is a CoC #2, a 2.5 Coc, and a 2+ CoC? (Lord, save me from the texting abbreviation generation - lol)

    Dave
    Captains of Crush grippers from Iron Mind Enterprises. They are graded by numbers, up to #4. Pretty much the gold standard as far as grippers go. Their “Trainer” model takes 100 pounds of pressure to close.
    Polite Professional

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    I need an explanation. What on earth is a CoC #2, a 2.5 Coc, and a 2+ CoC? (Lord, save me from the texting abbreviation generation - lol)

    Dave
    Ron Avery flexin'.

    https://youtu.be/e8_w3fxnZss

  10. #10
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    "Captains of Crush"! Really? Someone named a grips strength trainer that? ROTFLMAO!

    Dave

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