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Thread: Sul vs Safety Circle

  1. #11
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    I was going to reply earlier, but this is largely the same as my thinking....especially the overuse of Sul as a ready position. Sul is a moment in time where the muzzle is diverted to avoiding muzzling non hostiles. The safety circle is a model of how to employ Sul. Haven't watched the Gomez video, so I can't comment on that. I'd be interested in hearing about how its taught at FLETC or TGS's agency though.
    Me too! We have been teaching SUL for years but now have the opportunity to make some changes, and while I have some thoughts I’d certainly like to see other options.

  2. #12
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    I'd be interested in hearing about how its taught at FLETC or TGS's agency though.
    Probably the same as everyone else. Point the weapon at the ground in a vertical position, and don't point it at people. To be fair I think FLETC called it something different, or maybe we call it something different, but it was conceptually the same thing. I distinctly remember an instructor making a joke about that and forgetting what he was supposed to call it by the curriculum, and that somebody probably got an award for calling it something different.

    Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.

    @Gadfly
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  3. #13
    I agree that Sul shouldn’t be a ready position because it’s not a “ready” position. You don’t have a real two handed grip on your firearm. Low ready is a ready position. High compressed ready is a ready position. You can either already shoot from those positions or you only need to move the gun along one axis to shoot from those positions since your grip is established. I believe Sul, and things like temple index, should be used when moving around no-shoots you don’t want to muzzle like teammates and uninvolved third parties.

    My first agency used Sul as a ready position. I wasn’t a fan of that approach. My current agency teaches it as a default position when not actively aimed in on something while operating in a team environment such as when clearing a structure. I can’t really argue against it because of how often people are moving around other people during such scenarios. I don’t entirely agree with @SoCalDep in that most times people employ Sul, they’d probably be better off reholstering or just keeping the gun holstered. I’ve found getting the gun up in my eye line and shooting from Sul to be enough faster than from having my hand on a holstered pistol that I’m okay keeping the gun in my hand and managing the associated risks of moving with a gun in your hand.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  4. #14
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Probably the same as everyone else. Point the weapon at the ground in a vertical position, and don't point it at people. To be fair I think FLETC called it something different, or maybe we call it something different, but it was conceptually the same thing. I distinctly remember an instructor making a joke about that and forgetting what he was supposed to call it by the curriculum, and that somebody probably got an award for calling it something different.

    Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.

    @Gadfly
    I just left Fletc, but I was in the classroom the whole time. I went there to be an FI, and they were short staffed in the classroom, so I got voluntold.

    As far as Sul, yeah, we teach it, but it’s not the end all be all “you must use it” thing. It’s a tool in the toolbox. It has a place. But a lot of people look like absolute douche bags while doing it. If you don’t have a target, it works... so does holstering.

    Tool in the toolbox. Use as needed...
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  5. #15
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I agree that Sul shouldn’t be a ready position because it’s not a “ready” position. You don’t have a real two handed grip on your firearm. Low ready is a ready position. High compressed ready is a ready position. You can either already shoot from those positions or you only need to move the gun along one axis to shoot from those positions since your grip is established. I believe Sul, and things like temple index, should be used when moving around no-shoots you don’t want to muzzle like teammates and uninvolved third parties.

    My first agency used Sul as a ready position. I wasn’t a fan of that approach. My current agency teaches it as a default position when not actively aimed in on something while operating in a team environment such as when clearing a structure. I can’t really argue against it because of how often people are moving around other people during such scenarios. I don’t entirely agree with @SoCalDep in that most times people employ Sul, they’d probably be better off reholstering or just keeping the gun holstered. I’ve found getting the gun up in my eye line and shooting from Sul to be enough faster than from having my hand on a holstered pistol that I’m okay keeping the gun in my hand and managing the associated risks of moving with a gun in your hand.
    Allow me to clarify...

    I agree that for those short-duration events where one needs to move around people while still expecting an immediate threat (think re-positioning to address a threat or responding to an active shooter with people running everywhere) that diverted muzzle techniques are far better than holstering a pistol.

    What I was talking about is multiple muzzles pointed at a threat (felony traffic stop) and we need to significantly move to re-position. While moving we are in no way able or appropriate to address the threat. Holster the damn gun. We’re standing around because we have nothing to do and no place to point a muzzle... Holster. We’re in the middle of an 8-person stack and want to be part of the fun but have nothing to do...

    The reality is that under stress most people (including many of the thousands I’ve trained and hundreds I’ve watched in force-on-force) won’t use a diverted technique. They’ll point their muzzle at anyone and anything around... often while pressing the trigger. I watched one person get hit with a sim round from the roof and proceed to shoot almost everyone else on their six person “team” as they spun around trying to “find” the bad guy.

    If you have a place to point the gun... point it there. If not, holster. If you have a place to point the gun but something/someone got in your way, then by all means divert the muzzle - if you can - and reposition to point the gun.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    Allow me to clarify...

    I agree that for those short-duration events where one needs to move around people while still expecting an immediate threat (think re-positioning to address a threat or responding to an active shooter with people running everywhere) that diverted muzzle techniques are far better than holstering a pistol.

    What I was talking about is multiple muzzles pointed at a threat (felony traffic stop) and we need to significantly move to re-position. While moving we are in no way able or appropriate to address the threat. Holster the damn gun. We’re standing around because we have nothing to do and no place to point a muzzle... Holster. We’re in the middle of an 8-person stack and want to be part of the fun but have nothing to do...

    The reality is that under stress most people (including many of the thousands I’ve trained and hundreds I’ve watched in force-on-force) won’t use a diverted technique. They’ll point their muzzle at anyone and anything around... often while pressing the trigger. I watched one person get hit with a sim round from the roof and proceed to shoot almost everyone else on their six person “team” as they spun around trying to “find” the bad guy.

    If you have a place to point the gun... point it there. If not, holster. If you have a place to point the gun but something/someone got in your way, then by all means divert the muzzle - if you can - and reposition to point the gun.
    I’m tracking now. I completely agree.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    My current agency teaches it as a default position when not actively aimed in on something while operating in a team environment such as when clearing a structure.
    That is primarily how my agency teaches/utilizes it. I don't have a problem with utilizing it like this, and it is a relatively easy technique to teaches the masses, which as mentioned, are not as coordinated or as disciplined with their muzzle awareness as the folks posting here would be. We definitely do not use or teach it as a ready position though.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    Yeah, I speak on behalf of nobody but me, but I always treat Sul as sort of a fast compression position if I'm moving around other people. I can break a pistol down to Sul from high ready (or low ready, I guess, although I'm struggling to think of a situation in which that would apply to me) to step behind someone or if someone steps in front of me, and go back to high ready as I clear them.

    I honestly don't really care if the originator has the muzzle pointed down, or 45, or at the moon. From my perspective, when I break the gun down off ready, I'm pointing it at the ground because unless I'm in a densely packed gymnasium of toddlers, that's probably the safest direction. I call it Sul because that's what I was taught: support hand flat on the chest, muzzle down, thumb tips touching or thereabouts, that's Sul. Nobody ever gave me really specific directions about what "muzzle down" means; I point it straight down because that's where it should go.

    I actually wasn't familiar with the expression "safety circle" and it sounds gay but the concept seems valid, although I would express it thusly:

    "Your gun should not be pointing at friendly body parts, even feet. But if it's pointing at feet, they damn well better be your own feet. If you do something stupid and embarrassing, you can say 'I shot myself in the foot there' but the expression for shooting someone ELSE in the foot is not a funny idiom, it's criminal negligence and somebody taking your guns away. Don't do that shit."

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    I just left Fletc, but I was in the classroom the whole time. I went there to be an FI, and they were short staffed in the classroom, so I got voluntold.

    As far as Sul, yeah, we teach it, but it’s not the end all be all “you must use it” thing. It’s a tool in the toolbox. It has a place. But a lot of people look like absolute douche bags while doing it. If you don’t have a target, it works... so does holstering.

    Tool in the toolbox. Use as needed...

    I've had more than a couple sleep cycles since FLETC, in both FITP and SSTP. I've read Max Joseph describe the genesis of SUL, and had Mark Fricke describe the Safety Circle in an instructor in-service class in Nebraska. And, honestly, sometimes the sources of info get muddled after time. Suffice to say that neither are really "ready positions", but muzzle aversion techniques when in and around no-shoots. And, ultimately, "six-of-one / half-a-dozen of the other". Do whichever you have to do to avoid muzzling no-shoots. I would advise practitioners to get as close as possible to the original sources as possible, as each removal from said source of this information is just as reliable as playing 'telephone' as a kid.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Probably the same as everyone else. Point the weapon at the ground in a vertical position, and don't point it at people. To be fair I think FLETC called it something different, or maybe we call it something different, but it was conceptually the same thing. I distinctly remember an instructor making a joke about that and forgetting what he was supposed to call it by the curriculum, and that somebody probably got an award for calling it something different.

    Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.

    @Gadfly
    FLETC calls (or called) Sul "the alternate position."

    Theory being it's not a ready position but rather an "alternate" position for use only when there is a friendly or non -threat in front of / around you precluding a ready position.

    Similar to what DanM and Gio described but FLETC like to have their own labels for everything.

    @DanM our Agency was pushing the NRA safety circle for a awhile via our national firearms unit. Thankfully that has gone away.
    Last edited by HCM; 04-14-2020 at 09:40 PM.

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