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Thread: Sul vs Safety Circle

  1. #1

    Sul vs Safety Circle

    Is there a difference?

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    From my perspective, they both fill a “niche”, and both have advantages and disadvantages compared to each other.

    First, I think we need to define why those techniques exist in the first place, and put them in their proper perspective compared to actual “ready positions”, as I don’t consider them “ready positions”.

    In my mind there are two “ideal” places for a handgun being used (ie: searching, barricading, detaining, etc.). The first “ideal” is secured in a holster. This is the safest place the pistol can be and where the pistol should be if a threat is not expected/present. If a threat is expected, the “ideal” is a ready position (low ready, compressed ready, or all the other terms that describe those positions where the muzzle is oriented toward a threat area) that allows minimal time between being able to fire while allowing appropriate situational awareness. Visual obstructions and available space can and often will determine the appropriate ready position to use. Both the SUL and Safety Circle fail in what I’ve defined above compared to low or compressed ready. The muzzle is purposefully diverted far from the threat and in an awkward position. Both are poor choices from a weapon-retention standpoint and both present safety and muzzle awareness issues that we will discuss in a second.

    Of course, “ideal” rarely exists independent of the “not ideal”, and that’s where these diverted muzzle techniques come into play. When the handgun is appropriately out of the holster in a high-risk situation yet the user is moving around people who don’t deserve a muzzle being pointed at them, one needs to do “something” to divert the muzzle from the ready position. The question is then what techniques are more appropriate for the situation. Here’s where we get the temple-index, SUL, Safety Circle, and the numerous other positions depending on small details, terminology, or to get deep in the weeds the use of handguns, long-guns, or consistency with both.

    In short, diverted muzzle techniques should be used in situations when the pistol must be out of the holster but the user is moving around innocent/uninvolved persons or things or where there’s no good place to point the muzzle.

    I used the SUL a fair bit when making entries with several deputies or during felony traffic stops when I had to re-position. Looking back now, in most of those cases I should simply have holstered.

    In the event of those fleeting moments where we momentarily divert the muzzle as we say, move around a partner to gain a safer or more appropriate position, which technique is best?

    The SUL offers the advantage of a physical “index” against the body which (in theory) allows one to maintain muzzle discipline without having to look at the pistol. On the other hand it is complicated and awkward for many, resulting in poor technique, especially for those introduced to the technique too early in overall skill development. I’ve seen lots of people muzzle their own hands and body or fail to bring the muzzle straight in front and almost straight down. Particularly when turning the muzzle ends up being oriented far to the side and potentially in unsafe directions.

    The Safety Circle is a much simpler technique in execution and in my mind probably better for most, but has it’s own drawbacks. First, it is horrible for weapon retention as the handgun is held awkwardly and held out away from the body ready to be grabbed or impacted. There is no physical index so in some ways more care must be taken to avoid muzzling one’s own body or others, but the simplicity makes this a gray area compared to SUL. I know many will say SUL is a “technique” as part of the overall “safety circle” concept but I prefer to separate them because there are such distinct differences in skill development to properly employ them.

    Both of these techniques and others (temple-index, etc) serve the momentary purpose of diverting the muzzle to avoid covering things we don’t wish to destroy or pay for. At least one or the other should be learned and practiced by those who may potentially use a handgun in “social situations”. Both techniques are frequently done wrong (SUL more than the other) and both techniques are VERY often applied inappropriately as ready positions or when the handgun should simply be holstered.

  4. #4
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Gomez's video on the subject is excessively pedantic and theatrical.

    They're the same thing. If you have to go through a tight hallway, your tuck your elbows in and compress your hold as necessary. If you're not, you can relax the elbows and not look like a monkey fucking a football just because someone says "but it's this, not this". The safety circle as described by him is not the safety circle as taught by FLETC or my agency, and looks absolutely fucking stupid.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  5. #5
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    I agree that it should be more simple than many people make it, and while SUL works, I find it too “not simple” for most. I also don’t like a go-to muzzle up position as shown in the Paul Gomez video because many people don’t realize how close they are to pointing the pistol at their own head. I think the motivated and experienced such as us on this forum and in the training world can forget how uncoordinated an inexperienced person can be.

  6. #6
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I agree that it should be more simple than many people make it, and while SUL works, I find it too “not simple” for most. I also don’t like a go-to muzzle up position as shown in the Paul Gomez video because many people don’t realize how close they are to pointing the pistol at their own head. I think the motivated and experienced such as us on this forum and in the training world can forget how uncoordinated an inexperienced person can be.
    I once had to reach over a dude’s shoulder and grab his gun because he was muzzling his hat brim and breaking the vertical 180, with finger not fully out of the trigger guard. “Because I don’t want to clean your brains off my face” was my response when he started arguing.
    “There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie

  7. #7
    This is from my file of copied articles:

    Remember the Safety Circle when muzzling your gun: A training concept taught for a decade is still unfamiliar to many officers and agencies

    By: Bill Campbell

    For the past 12 years, the NRA's Law Enforcement Activities Division has taught the concept of the Safety Circle in Firearms Instructor Development courses offered nationwide. Throughout the past decade, I’ve seen the concept renamed and re-taught at many training conferences and courses, but occasionally I still find that officers and agencies are unfamiliar with it.

    Edited by mod - please don't post entire copyrighted articles. Link to full article here:

    link: https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...xiCD9JKlGoBcS/
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 04-11-2020 at 03:49 PM.

  8. #8
    I posted the prior on safety circle because I find it is a foreign concept to many folks. I decided to google the tile and here you go, the original article:

    https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...xiCD9JKlGoBcS/

    An article on 'Sul':

    http://blog.cuttingedgetraining.org/...-Position.aspx

    Video from 'co-founder' of Sul:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-amA56Ge4
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I posted the prior on safety circle because I find it is a foreign concept to many folks. I decided to google the tile and here you go, the original article:

    An article on 'Sul':

    http://blog.cuttingedgetraining.org/...-Position.aspx

    Video from 'co-founder' of Sul:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-amA56Ge4
    The photo and article on Sul contradicts the video of Max Joseph, I was asking for 1st hand knowledge from forum members.

    The people I've shared the range with from my local PD collapse into that quasi-Sul after their string of fire. I thought perhaps it was something else I wasn't familiar with or perhaps more likely a "telephone game" version.

  10. #10
    Member
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    Living across the Golden Bridge , and through the Rainbow Tunnel, somewhere north of Fantasyland.
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    From my perspective, they both fill a “niche”, and both have advantages and disadvantages compared to each other.

    First, I think we need to define why those techniques exist in the first place, and put them in their proper perspective compared to actual “ready positions”, as I don’t consider them “ready positions”.

    In my mind there are two “ideal” places for a handgun being used (ie: searching, barricading, detaining, etc.). The first “ideal” is secured in a holster. This is the safest place the pistol can be and where the pistol should be if a threat is not expected/present. If a threat is expected, the “ideal” is a ready position (low ready, compressed ready, or all the other terms that describe those positions where the muzzle is oriented toward a threat area) that allows minimal time between being able to fire while allowing appropriate situational awareness. Visual obstructions and available space can and often will determine the appropriate ready position to use. Both the SUL and Safety Circle fail in what I’ve defined above compared to low or compressed ready. The muzzle is purposefully diverted far from the threat and in an awkward position. Both are poor choices from a weapon-retention standpoint and both present safety and muzzle awareness issues that we will discuss in a second.

    Of course, “ideal” rarely exists independent of the “not ideal”, and that’s where these diverted muzzle techniques come into play. When the handgun is appropriately out of the holster in a high-risk situation yet the user is moving around people who don’t deserve a muzzle being pointed at them, one needs to do “something” to divert the muzzle from the ready position. The question is then what techniques are more appropriate for the situation. Here’s where we get the temple-index, SUL, Safety Circle, and the numerous other positions depending on small details, terminology, or to get deep in the weeds the use of handguns, long-guns, or consistency with both.

    In short, diverted muzzle techniques should be used in situations when the pistol must be out of the holster but the user is moving around innocent/uninvolved persons or things or where there’s no good place to point the muzzle.

    I used the SUL a fair bit when making entries with several deputies or during felony traffic stops when I had to re-position. Looking back now, in most of those cases I should simply have holstered.

    In the event of those fleeting moments where we momentarily divert the muzzle as we say, move around a partner to gain a safer or more appropriate position, which technique is best?

    The SUL offers the advantage of a physical “index” against the body which (in theory) allows one to maintain muzzle discipline without having to look at the pistol. On the other hand it is complicated and awkward for many, resulting in poor technique, especially for those introduced to the technique too early in overall skill development. I’ve seen lots of people muzzle their own hands and body or fail to bring the muzzle straight in front and almost straight down. Particularly when turning the muzzle ends up being oriented far to the side and potentially in unsafe directions.

    The Safety Circle is a much simpler technique in execution and in my mind probably better for most, but has it’s own drawbacks. First, it is horrible for weapon retention as the handgun is held awkwardly and held out away from the body ready to be grabbed or impacted. There is no physical index so in some ways more care must be taken to avoid muzzling one’s own body or others, but the simplicity makes this a gray area compared to SUL. I know many will say SUL is a “technique” as part of the overall “safety circle” concept but I prefer to separate them because there are such distinct differences in skill development to properly employ them.

    Both of these techniques and others (temple-index, etc) serve the momentary purpose of diverting the muzzle to avoid covering things we don’t wish to destroy or pay for. At least one or the other should be learned and practiced by those who may potentially use a handgun in “social situations”. Both techniques are frequently done wrong (SUL more than the other) and both techniques are VERY often applied inappropriately as ready positions or when the handgun should simply be holstered.
    I was going to reply earlier, but this is largely the same as my thinking....especially the overuse of Sul as a ready position. Sul is a moment in time where the muzzle is diverted to avoiding muzzling non hostiles. The safety circle is a model of how to employ Sul. Haven't watched the Gomez video, so I can't comment on that. I'd be interested in hearing about how its taught at FLETC or TGS's agency though.

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