RFI FN 15 Carbines

[El Cid]

Agreed on the aforementioned options. I’ll also throw in Geissele. Like the others 2-500 more than the 1000 mark.

https://geissele.com/rifles/super-duty-rifles.html

[HCM]

When FN launched the consumer line, I read that they have to have complete segregation of the production, to ensure they aren't inadvertently or otherwise shipping DOD products to civs (I interpret this as e.g. ensuring someone doesn't sneak select fire parts into a civ lower; there's likely also an issue of using production facilities & equipment that were paid for by .gov to make product that is not for the program that paid for it), but never any details of what that means as far as actual production process and quality differences. Basically, the message was that they do it as close as reasonably possible to the mil-spec guns. But no details. I'd like to learn more, but there probably isn't any way for that information to become public.

The production facilities and equipment in FN’s factory belong to and were paid for by FN, not the .gov. And it has nothing to do with select fire parts. FN is an SOT/manufacturer and can make commercial select fire guns for state and local LE and other lawful buyers.

The separation is due to intellectual property (IP) rights. FN builds mil/.gov guns to the specifications of the Technical Data Package (TDP) for that gun, in this case the M4.

The TDP for the M4 was developed by Colt for the GOV. Part of the agreement between Colt and the GOV, and between the GOV and subsequent producers of GOV M4s is that the IP/Specifications may only be used for production of GOV guns.

Hence Colt is the only one who can make commercial M4s on the same production line as GOV guns because they originated the IP/TDP. Everyone else only has license to use it for DOD/MIL/GOV contract products.

Even within FN’s commercial line there are varying levels of quality. Their early commercial guns were “OK-ish” while the FN TAC II guns are better than milspec.

[OlongJohnson]

Thanks, that's helpful information.

[rob_s]

When FN launched the consumer line, I read that they have to have complete segregation of the production, to ensure they aren't inadvertently or otherwise shipping DOD products to civs (I interpret this as e.g. ensuring someone doesn't sneak select fire parts into a civ lower; there's likely also an issue of using production facilities & equipment that were paid for by .gov to make product that is not for the program that paid for it), but never any details of what that means as far as actual production process and quality differences. Basically, the message was that they do it as close as reasonably possible to the mil-spec guns. But no details. I'd like to learn more, but there probably isn't any way for that information to become public.

My recollection (perhaps biased, since I’m a known Colt shill and even on the payroll ) was that they were allowed access to the TDP for their mil contract but not for commercial.

With so many other known good options, I see no reason to buy an FN commercial gun.

[Wake27]

My understanding is that FN commercial rifles are not equivalent to what they built for the military in terms of quality.
The AR market is probably the worst it’s been for the last three years (from a consumer perspective).
There’s still some quality to be had for not silly prices though.

A little under 1k
https://sonsoflibertygw.com/m4-patro...-sl-handguard/

A little over

https://www.centurionarms.com/cm4-rifle-p/cm4rfl.htm

Both by well regarded companies.


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What do you mean the worst its been?

[Rick62]

What do you mean the worst its been?

Poor, or lazy, wording on my part. I meant that if I were in the market for my first/only AR, I’d rather be shopping at basically any point in the previous three years, rather than today.

Two years ago you could point someone in that situation to a $700 Colt OEM. Regardless of how you feel about Colt as a company, or the features of a base 6920 (I believe you’ve previously expressed a preference for mid length gas systems) it would be tough to argue with the recommendation at that price. 6960s were available for, I seem to remember, close to $1k as well.

Last year, when centurion started producing complete rifles in a saturated market, they did so at a $1k introductory price point.
If you were a gambling (and patient) buyer on Black Friday , you could’ve landed a complete Geissele super duty or SOLGW M76 for $1100.

Until the recent run on ammo, wolf gold, my preferred range blasting ammo, has been reliably $265/case, dipping to $245/case on sale.

So I don’t mean that it necessarily a bad time to buy a rifle. Fuck, it always a good time to buy a gun.
But the market has looked very different over the last few years until somewhat recently.


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[Rick R]

The production facilities and equipment in FN’s factory belong to and were paid for by FN, not the .gov. And it has nothing to do with select fire parts. FN is an SOT/manufacturer and can make commercial select fire guns for state and local LE and other lawful buyers.

The separation is due to intellectual property (IP) rights. FN builds mil/.gov guns to the specifications of the Technical Data Package (TDP) for that gun, in this case the M4.

The TDP for the M4 was developed by Colt for the GOV. Part of the agreement between Colt and the GOV, and between the GOV and subsequent producers of GOV M4s is that the IP/Specifications may only be used for production of GOV guns.

Hence Colt is the only one who can make commercial M4s on the same production line as GOV guns because they originated the IP/TDP. Everyone else only has license to use it for DOD/MIL/GOV contract products.

Even within FN’s commercial line there are varying levels of quality. Their early commercial guns were “OK-ish” while the FN TAC II guns are better than milspec.

I’ve had different FN employees tell me on two occasions that FN builds their rifles on the same lines with the same employees with the only difference being the NFA parts. They seemed amused at the thought.

All I can say is my FN Tactical Carbine has been a better rifle than my previous Colt. But I can also buy a good upper and lower from several places these days and end up less expensive than the FN.

[Wake27]

Poor, or lazy, wording on my part. I meant that if I were in the market for my first/only AR, I’d rather be shopping at basically any point in the previous three years, rather than today.

Two years ago you could point someone in that situation to a $700 Colt OEM. Regardless of how you feel about Colt as a company, or the features of a base 6920 (I believe you’ve previously expressed a preference for mid length gas systems) it would be tough to argue with the recommendation at that price. 6960s were available for, I seem to remember, close to $1k as well.

Last year, when centurion started producing complete rifles in a saturated market, they did so at a $1k introductory price point.
If you were a gambling (and patient) buyer on Black Friday , you could’ve landed a complete Geissele super duty or SOLGW M76 for $1100.

Until the recent run on ammo, wolf gold, my preferred range blasting ammo, has been reliably $265/case, dipping to $245/case on sale.

So I don’t mean that it necessarily a bad time to buy a rifle. Fuck, it always a good time to buy a gun.
But the market has looked very different over the last few years until somewhat recently.


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Right on, hard to argue there. That being said, I haven't noticed a price jump in ARs yet. Lower stock yes, but I think the pricing is still pretty decent as long as you can find what you want.

[HCM]

I’ve had different FN employees tell me on two occasions that FN builds their rifles on the same lines with the same employees with the only difference being the NFA parts. They seemed amused at the thought.

All I can say is my FN Tactical Carbine has been a better rifle than my previous Colt. But I can also buy a good upper and lower from several places these days and end up less expensive than the FN.

Everybody seems to have this false impression that producing guns for government contracts means the government somehow owns the production line or sets up a mini arsenal in the factory. That is not true. Production lines don’t mean s**t that is the company’s Productiolines don’t mean s**t, that is the company’s property. Guns are normally made in batches / production runs anyway.

FN can use whatever FN facility they want for whatever they want. The government may have a few inspectors checking on things but that is the extent of it. All they care about is that the finished product meets the specifications in the government contract.

What FN cannot do is make a 100% TP spec M4 because they do not own the intellectual property for that design. It doesn’t take much change to make it just different enough that there is no issue. Milspec is a minimal standard, not the mark of excellence. It has nothing to do with NFA parts as FN can make NFA versions of their commercial guns for anyone who can legally buy them.

As far as quality goes, the early FN commercial ARs were ok, on par with say, S&W M&P15s. Some of their AR’s, like the tack I I and the DMR are excellent guns and better than mill spec.

FM is not the only company that makes different products at different levels of quality, to target different markets. This is like the math that all FN made barrels are created equal. FN has a minimum quality standard for what they will let out the door but a $200 FN barrel and a $400 FN barrel are not the same barrel. This is true whether it’s a barrel they make for somebody else or the barrel in FN’s top of the line guns versus their cheaper guns. They will, within reason, make whatever level of quality the customer is willing to pay for.

[ReverendMeat]

The ones I looked at when they first hit the market didn't impress me for reasons I don't remember, probably either using SA carriers or have unstaked RE nuts or something like that. The next ones I saw a couple years later seemed g2g such that I ordered one of their 20" A4 upper which didn't have anything noticeably wrong with it, and the guy I was working with ordered one of their fancy competition guns and he was a fan (he shot comps too).

idk I'd be perfectly happy with one for around 1k but tbh if you're buying anything but that 1200 centurion right now you might be nuts, and along with the other recommendations I'd throw in Sionics too once they start shipping again which if you configure the upper and lower separate you can get for under 1200 iirc,