CCW for use in & around cars?

[Dov]

Wasn't sure where to post this.

Darryl and some other have posted about LEO &/or Executive Protection considerations related to vehicles. Like preferring 30 caliber rifles (7.62x39 or 7.62x51) or 12 gauge slugs over 5.56.

Reality for non LEO CCW though is generally your going to only have available what your carrying & maybe supplementary offbody or special holster for one of the CCW guns that is more accessible in car (Safepacker, fannypack, vehicle mounted holster, etc).

Probably because my personal experiences that came closest to having to use CCW both involved cars I think about that aspect a fair bit.

Other than using Gold Dot or similar loads that are decent barrier blind loads & perhaps having gun/holster that's more accessible than main CCW's when seat belted in are there other hardware considerations worth thinking about? Any substantive benefit to a 40 S&W (don't own), or 10mm/357 (which I own) over my normal 9x19's & 38+P?

I worked hard to learn from both incidents and correct what I felt were suboptimal tactics in both cases. Though I'm not satisfied with anything I've thought of related to the incident that involved me & girlfriend in two separate cars. She has her own CCW's & a class with Mas beyond state mandated carry classes, but she isn't into self defense & weapons like most/all members here.

[RevolverRob]

Barrier blind ammunition and practice shooting through laminated vehicle glass, to learn how bullets react.

Once you've taken ECQC (https://shivworks.com/extreme-close-quarter-concepts/) you could consider VCAST (https://shivworks.com/vehicle-combat...oting-tactics/)

As far as firearms choices - all handguns are pretty much equal. A faster bullet does not necessarily help you, a heavier bullet probably will*. I would prefer a heavy-for-caliber barrier blind load in my handgun. A 147-grain 9mm - the Speer G2, Winchester Bonded, Hornady Critical Duty, all offer acceptable performance through glass. If you want a lighter bullet, monolithic bullets (all copper) also perform well through laminated glass. I would not be at all afraid to carry the Barnes Tac-XP load.

*The reason folks like .30 cal rifles and 12-gauge shotguns is because the heavier bullets offer more penetration and less deflection when striking things like laminated glass. However, pistol bullets suck compared to a 12-gauge or .30 cal rifle. So, pick the one that gives you plenty of shots and that you shoot best.

[Bratch]

At some point @SouthNarc mentioned that .40 seemed to penetrate cars better than 9, I can’t remember if it was a personal conversation or on a board somewhere, but based on that conversation one of the stupid cheap .40 M&P trade ins became my around cars gun.

[HopetonBrown]

What's your own training background?

That'll what makes the difference. Not an extra 200 fps.

[Hambo]

VCAST is what you need.

IIRC @Dagga Boy has posted about magnum revolvers in the car.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

AAR from my Dave Spaulding class. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ight=Spaulding

Also did a couple of vehicle classes at Karl Rehn's. He has a few classes with such content.

[vcdgrips]

I posited these questions re a poster who was over focusing on the hardware solution as opposed to the software:

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch circle at 3 yards in under 2 seconds, COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, and do a FAST Test in under 10 seconds, COLD, every time with no points down?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, taking a big step off line and hit an 8 inch circle at 5 yards, with 5 rounds, in under 4 secs., COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch plate at 10 yrds, at will, COLD, every time with no time constraints?( bang, tink, bang, tink, bang, tink etc.)

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and shoot a 5 shoot group at 5 yrds that you can cover with a credit card, COLD, every time?

Have you taken any formal training beyond a CCW class in the last 24 months?


Being able to do the above is far more important, IMHO, than your contemplation of an entirely different platform from the ones you own. Buy a quality 147 g 9mm defense load, some 147 grain training ammo and do the work.

[Kyle Reese]

VCDGRIPS,
Amen! The gear is the easy part. Putting in the work is, well, work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dov]

Thanks for all the responses!

I'll try to respond to all the questions & comments in one post.

I do realize there are not any magic calibers or bullets, perhaps could have worded that section better, I had looked at stickies & did couple of searches here but didn't see anything about barrier blind service caliber ammo that seemed more recent than last time I looked into it and went with Gold Dots. I was just trying to make sure there hadn't been some relatively recent development in barrier blind ammo since I don't follow that stuff all the time.

Though I do enjoy many guns because I am a gadget nerd at heart, for example I have owned a Steyr Scout and would love a drilling someday, I don't really enjoy shooting much.

I do practice shooting just like I do cardio (currently 9 hours a week of boring indoor cardio) because I feel the benefits outweigh the boredom.

For formal classes I've only had 2 classes with Massad Ayoob, though I have had conversations with a few people like Keith Jones and have studied and practiced very seriously.

My first serious IMO CCW gun was a J frame and I structured my practice with that just like my strength and cardio workouts.

I put over a thousand rounds through the J frame in the first year I had it, I was going to the range 2 to 3 times a week plus dryfiring 2-4 times a week.

I never did high volumes of shooting at a time, I was striving to do very frequent practice because of what I learned from Keith Jones & his department's success rate when they switch from twice a year qualifier to 10 times a year with same ammo budget spread out over 10 sessions. That also fit with the sports/athletic research I had done as personal project in college, that frequency of practice was more important than volume.

I would always shoot the first 5 rounds with the J frame cold, usually once a week the cold string of fire would be with the Rem 38+P 158 LHP I was carrying in the gun (this was way the days of the 135 GDHP). Both to rotate the carry ammo, and because of Mas recommendations not to practice solely with lower recoiling ammo.

I've never used a timer, I was more concerned with being smooth and consistent.

I was also very influenced by Cirillo's book that strongly suggested to me that practicing for smaller targets was probably a good idea, so the vast bulk of my practice has been done using 3x5 inch notecards, though I have also done a bit with half of paper plate to represent the upper chest.

Both Mas comments about home defense and Cirillo's words about how the Stakeout Squad planned their stakeouts (they planned it more like a military prepared defense) led me to not only plan home defense along the lines Mas suggests with ensconced defender. But I also practice in every place I've lived with empty guns how I'd actually investigate "noise in the night" that was suspicious but that didn't rise to the level of bunkering down and calling 911. With real thought given to lines of fire and backstops.

I transitioned from the J frame as primary to G26 as primary usually with J frame as bug, to eventually carrying pair of G26s always short of some Dr's visits and such.

Craig's vehicle class sounds very interesting, but I have a few health issues one of which makes any kind of contact sport or practice not feasible any more. So if that is a component or prerequisite for the class its probably not a choice.

Something like Dave Spaulding's class that was mentioned might be possible.

We do plan to take a driving class eventually, had planned to have done that already but previous 7 or so years I have,'t been able to do much a t all because of health issues. Fall of 2018 finally got a surgery that allowed management of one issue so wasn't completely fatigue all the time. I've done more in last year since recovering from that surgery than previous 6 years combined.

I'm a weight lifter but haven't been able to lift weights or do real strength training for long time prior to 2019, but upper body strength is decent now though not quite back to my previous levels lower body strength still long way from where it used to be, but Cardio is as good as it has ever been and looking to increase that more yet.

Used to do martial arts but can't do any contact or grappling now, anything and nothing can trigger crippling muscles spasms.

Things as simple as sitting in a chair or car seat that doesn't fit me well for 20 minutes can leave me with debilitating pain.

Been to Mayo a lot and class there taught several things like exercise that do help manage the spasms but exercise can also trigger it. They are sever enough they have strained/sprained ankles, wrists, & ribs.

Because of that I can't use any normal type of belt concealment holster, anything touching my ribs or back triggers spams pretty quickly.

So pocket carry is my standard, occasionally supplemented with something like Safepacker or bad with dedicated pistol compartment.

I can use duty/field type holsters that keep grip at belt height or lower as long as weight is balanced.

I haven't been able to do consistent live fire practice for years because of the health issues, was expecting to start this year between pollen seasons (local ranges are all outdoor ranges) because I have severe allergies and breathing problems on top of the other issues.

But with Coronavirus I am not sure when that will actually happen.

Been debating if it makes sense to put the SIRT bolt in the AR for practice, I've only got one AR & don't like flipping the SIRT bolt in and out frequently because it can trigger pain issues.

Almost forgot to add, what range time I have gotten in last several years has been focused on what Darryl and Wayne teach. Their doctrine, for lack of better word, seems to be really brilliant interpretation of data of actual gunfights. It not only fits the much smaller sample of gunfights I have studied, but also explains some of the successes Ive heard about from Keith Jones and read from Cirillo.

[jetfire]

I posited these questions re a poster who was over focusing on the hardware solution as opposed to the software:

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch circle at 3 yards in under 2 seconds, COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, and do a FAST Test in under 10 seconds, COLD, every time with no points down?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, taking a big step off line and hit an 8 inch circle at 5 yards, with 5 rounds, in under 4 secs., COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch plate at 10 yrds, at will, COLD, every time with no time constraints?( bang, tink, bang, tink, bang, tink etc.)

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and shoot a 5 shoot group at 5 yrds that you can cover with a credit card, COLD, every time?

Have you taken any formal training beyond a CCW class in the last 24 months?


Being able to do the above is far more important, IMHO, than your contemplation of an entirely different platform from the ones you own. Buy a quality 147 g 9mm defense load, some 147 grain training ammo and do the work.

I made an observation at a Langdon class that just by showing up at the class and completing it, a person would basically be in the top 1% of gun owners in terms of skill. I think that if you took your standards and a random sample of 100 CCW holders, you'd get a 99% failure rate.