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Thread: Carrying a Copy of Your Stamp

  1. #21
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomever View Post
    ... the officer is trying to determine whether your possession of the NFA item is lawful? For something registered to a trust, the stamp only shows it is lawfully registered to the trust, not that *your* possession is lawful.
    I guess I have a clever lawyer, he insisted that mine and my wife's full name plus the word "family" become part of the name or our trust, so those are on our Form 1's and Form 4's. All my NFA items are trust owned but I never carry a copy of the trust.

  2. #22
    For stuff that I have ATF letters for (Echo trigger for example), I put PDFs on a cheap flash drive and toss it in a zip-lock bag. Fold the bag up, and shove it in the Magpul grip. Would probably do the same when I do NFA stuff... and my TAC-14 will be one of those.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomever View Post
    "Nowhere in the ATF regulations does it require any portion of a trust as proof of registration.
    Granted, only the name of the trust is listed on the ATF forms and not the trustees individually but there is still no requirement to produce a copy of the trust on request."

    I know we can go back and forth. That is not my intent. I'm hoping to learn more this way.

    Again, IANAL, but isn't the context here that you have been pulled over and the officer is trying to determine whether your possession of the NFA item is lawful? For something registered to a trust, the stamp only shows it is lawfully registered to the trust, not that *your* possession is lawful.

    I was not aware that ATF agents pulled people over. The regulations require one to make available the proof of registration to an ATF agent not LEOs in general. And if one has been pulled over for a grossly stupid reason that gets their vehicle searched, possession of a NFA regulated item might be the least of one's worries, assuming that they have the required paperwork. Then again, that could be a crapshoot or worse.
    Agreed that the form/stamp only shows the trust, but since I am the signor of the trust, my name is on the form. Granted if my wife had the item in question her name would not appear on the form. But, then again, she would not be pulled over by an ATF agent. I would think that I/she would be more likely to encounter a ATF agent at a range or class than in a general public setting.

    For example, Fred creates the 'Acme NFA Trust' that names Fred and Fred's wife Mabel as people authorized to possess a given suppressor. Fred loans the suppressor to his buddy Bob without adding Bob to the trust. Bob gets pulled over going to the range - Bob's possession of the suppressor is not legal; Bob goes to Club Fed.

    This is a given.

    If Fred gets pulled over with the suppressor and shows only the form showing the can is registered to 'Acme NFA Trust', the LEO who pulled him over has no way to verify that Fred's possession is lawful, so he could choose to arrest Fred until it can be verified that Fred is a valid user under the terms of the trust. Avoiding that trip to jail is the point of carrying the paperwork in the first place, so it seems to me carrying the stamp form without the trust doesn't buy you much. It's possible the officer would say 'Hmmmm, it's registered to someone, I'll just take this guy's word that he's listed in the trust', but he could also decide 'Suppressors are presumptively illegal, and I haven't seen anything verifying this guy's possession is legal, so I'll book him and let the lawyers sort it out'.

    Here again, unless Fred lives in one of the places where suppressors are, in fact, illegal (California, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island) A local LEO would have no reason to question Fred's valid ownership. The regulations require one to make available proof of registration to an ATF agent. No mention of local LEO. NFA items are regulated federally not locally. Except in the above jurisdictions.

    So if you are carrying paperwork so you can be 100% protected against getting arrested for what is actually legal protection, I'd think you need the trust.

    I agree with you that from a common sense standpoint it stands to reason that one should retain a copy of their trust with the ATF forms/stamps (I do, electronically). It's just not spelled out that way in the regulations as being required.
    Again, IANAL, and am happy to be corrected.
    Last edited by baddean; 04-05-2020 at 01:23 PM.
    Dean,
    “The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine
    "The problem is not the availability of guns, it is the availability of morons."- Antonio Meloni

  4. #24
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddean View Post
    NFA items are regulated federally not locally. Except in the above jurisdictions.
    Absolutely false. In Alabama for example, all machine guns, SBS and SBR are regulated by state law as well. There is only provision/exception for possessing one by having the valid federal tax stamp.

    Any sworn AL leo could take me into custody for felony violation of state law if I failed to offer proof of legal possession of the items. I would beat the rap and get released, but who wants the ride?

  5. #25
    "In Alabama for example, all machine guns, SBS and SBR are regulated by state law as well. There is only provision/exception for possessing one by having the valid federal tax stamp."

    Washington state is the same.

  6. #26
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    @baddean,

    You're misunderstanding the intersection between a LEOs powers and the inspection requirement. Just because 26 USC 5841(e) requires you to present proof of registration of an NFA item to ATF upon request places no limit in any way upon a LEO conducting an investigation. 5841(e) allows the ATF the legal authority to compel inspection, something that does not exist for regular guns/non-NFA items.

    It does not prevent any other LEO......federal, state, local, tribal......from developing reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you are in possession of an NFA item illegally. Any LEO can still ask to see proof of registration......and if you don't have it, and they either have a bug up their ass or you've given them some reason to develop PC then you can still do the ride, and/or your property be confiscated as contraband until you prove that it isn't.

    I'm not saying anyone is playing with fire if they're driving around without their tax-stamp on them, I'm just saying that you're misinterpreting 26 USC 5841(e) and what it means. I have a coworker that brought a personal M203 to a range day, and there was doubt that he was in possession of it legally. When reported, ATF agents went to his house and asked to see his paperwork for it, they saw it, and they left. 26 USC 5841(e) gave them that authority, as it was a matter of inspection and not criminal investigation where they would need to go about articulating PC and getting a warrant.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #27
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    Thank you fatdog, whomever, and TSG.
    I'm learning from this thread.
    This is all good information. I see it would be wise to keep the paperwork with you when transporting or using NFA items.
    I do keep with me copies of the forms and trust. Although my trust is not as large as whomever.
    Last edited by baddean; 04-05-2020 at 05:52 PM.
    Dean,
    “The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine
    "The problem is not the availability of guns, it is the availability of morons."- Antonio Meloni

  8. #28
    Site Supporter jandbj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I have them on my phone, and also have copies of all my NFA stamps packaged in sandwich bags in every bag I use.

    EDIT: I have never had to show them to anyone.
    This ^

  9. #29
    Site Supporter rdtompki's Avatar
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    If you compete in a discipline that allows SBRs, but does not allow SBR-like pistols it's not a bad idea to carry (hard copy or electronic) a copy of the tax stamp. USPSA and Steel Challenge come to mind.

  10. #30
    Dot Driver Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    My original F1 and F4s are in a safe at home and I have a binder with copies in every range bag. Prior to leaving the house for the range I always double check that the binder is there and the appropriate form is present. I’ve never been asked about my NFA items at any range over the course of several years and in six states.

    YMMV


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