Second Generation S&W question

[Jared]

Ok, I seem to remember that the third gen Smiths had a trigger return spring that was riveted in place and if it broke, replacements were unobtainable. In other words, break that spring on a third gen smith and you’ve pretty much got a parts gun.

Do the Second Gen Smiths have the same setup or do they have a more conventional type spring for trigger return? Alternatively, am I imagining all of this?

Reason I’m asking is there’s reportedly a really really nice example of a 669 at a local shop for a reasonable price. I wouldn’t mind having it for an occasional shooter (I’d never carry it) as long as I can be reasonably sure it won’t break something like that TRS and turn it into, well, junk.

ETA: quick brownells search shows the spring I’m thinking of on Gen 3 Smiths is called the trigger play spring. At any rate, do the second and third gen guns share this part?

[Trooper224]

You're thinking of the trigger play spring, not the trigger return spring, two different things. The TRS is a coil spring that's easily replaced. The TPS is a leaf affair riveted to the trigger stirrup. The TPS is easy to bend, then break. It's purpose is to minimize trigger slop in SA mode. It isn't neccessary for vital function and several LE agencies requested it be left off their pistols


The TPS on my 4566 is broken off and I haven't felt the need to replace it. I haven't dug into a 2nd Gen. Pistol, but I think those parts largely remained unchanged.

[Lester Polfus]

My agency had transitioned to 3rd Gen Smiths before I got there, but there was plenty of institutional knowledge left over. Our department armorers saw the 3rd gen guns as a significant upgrade from the 2nd Gen guns in terms of durability. We had some trigger play springs break. I don't remember the number, but it was only a handful. They were mostly discovered during annual firearms teardown and inspection by the armorers, and not by the officer. At least a couple were attributed to overzealous digging around inside the gun in an attempted to get the gun "hospital clean."

The reality is, those guns are tanks. The 9mm guns in particularly are over built for what they are. You could probably buy one and shoot it quite a bit with no worries.

If you DO have a parts breakage, you're scrounging, and my understanding is certain parts are unobtanium.

They are great guns. I've resisted the urge to buy a 5906 but if I see a good deal I might not be able to resist, particularly if I see a good deal on one of the TSW guns.

[Jared]

Thanks guys!

[Trooper224]

The concern over parts availability is a legitimate one. However, when it comes to these 3rd Generation guns I think it might be a bit overblown. Almost across the board, they're built like tanks. Unless you're a heavy competitor, change the recoil spring every few thousand rounds and it may just outlive you.

[Lester Polfus]

The concern over parts availability is a legitimate one. However, when it comes to these 3rd Generation guns I think it might be a bit overblown. Almost across the board, they're built like tanks. Unless you're a heavy competitor, change the recoil spring every few thousand rounds and it may just outlive you.

Yes. I don't think I made that point very well.

My agency adopted 3rd Gen Smiths as soon as they came out. I started in 2002, and we still had guns in circulation from 1990 or so. So they were twelve year old guns. We shot more than many agencies, about 2K to 3K per officer a year. So many of those guns had 20K to 40K rounds through them. We sent our guys to S&W armorer school, but they were mostly like Maytag repairmen.

The biggest issue we had were night sights coming loose in the rear dove tail, but that wasn't Smith's fault, as we'd farmed them out to a local shop to replace the sights. If I remember correctly, I got new magazines when they issued me my gun and they replaced recoil springs every couple years.

I never saw one break. The only malfunctions I ever hard was from a mag that was super full of really fine sand.

[Lester Polfus]

Every time I've almost bought one, rationally it always made more sense to add to the 9mm Glocks I have because of commonality of parts, holsters, mags, etc.

But any rational need I have is well taken care of, except maybe for a 640 Pro. If I buy anything after that, it'll just be because I want it.

[Trooper224]

Yes. I don't think I made that point very well.

I wasn't correcting you specifically, so much as clarifying. I see the point about parts and service availability raised quite often with these guns and I think it's a bit overstated. It's a legitimate concern, but we aren't talking about a Nagant revolver or the like. I know my way around the mechanics of handguns and I've spent the last couple of years digging into these 3rd Generation S&Ws. In nearly every respect, it's as if the engineers designed a part then said, "Make it bigger." A 1911 seems fragile by comparison and they make revolver parts seem like hand blown glass.

[OlongJohnson]

The concern over parts availability is a legitimate one. However, when it comes to these 3rd Generation guns I think it might be a bit overblown. Almost across the board, they're built like tanks. Unless you're a heavy competitor, change the recoil spring every few thousand rounds and it may just outlive you.

+1 on the recoil spring. I have changed it in a few police-trade 3rd gens, and the difference racking the slide is dramatic. One that came out was ~1/2-5/8 shorter than the new one. Cheap insurance. Worth having extras on hand if you're actually going to shoot one of these. It's also not too expensive, or wasn't a few years ago, to throw fresh springs and followers in the mags.

I recall someone on here whose agency ran them saying you may see frame cracks starting around 30k rounds on the aluminum 9mms.

ETA: My experience is all with 9mms. It's possible they aren't quite as beefy as the .45s and .40s. It's one of the few service pistols where the 9mm and .40 are completely different frames. .45s bigger still, obviously.

I've divested from all my 3rd-gen double stacks, but have a handful of singles still around. Nothing else I've messed with quite hits the same intersecting point of big enough to be shootable while being as slim as these guns, although it's possible something in the P365/G48 range may take over that spot. I'm really waiting for the Vuurwappen hybrid, as I strongly prefer the Glock action and the Sig grip.

[Trooper224]

Every time I've almost bought one, rationally it always made more sense to add to the 9mm Glocks I have because of commonality of parts, holsters, mags, etc.

But any rational need I have is well taken care of, except maybe for a 640 Pro. If I buy anything after that, it'll just be because I want it.

Personally, I'm way past the point of "need" when it comes to weapons. I've had that covered for a long time. My wife has stopped asking, "What do you need that for?" I think she's tired of hearing, "Because it's cool."