Let's talk PDW's

[HeavyDuty]

I think the bag gun concept is as neat as everyone else here. I’ve got a shorty AR with a LAW Tactical folder and a B&T APC9. I’ve got bags they could fit into also. I just think it’s much more LARP than realistic. I don’t carry these things around with me in backpacks. It’s a huge hassle. Maybe, just maybe, if we’re talking about 2020 rioting, cities on fire, and groups of rifle-armed “protestors” stopping traffic, carrying a bigger gun in a bag might make some sense. The real use for bigger guns that fit in normal sized backpacks is so people don’t immediately start paying attention to you when you’re moving the guns from the house to the car, the car to the hotel, etc. @rob_s have a great example at some point of evacuating during a hurricane and being forced to overnight at a shady motel surrounded by suspicious characters. Having a more capable gun in an inconspicuous bag to bring into the hotel with you would be great. If you aren’t someone actively assigned to a security detail, carrying a rifle or PCC in a backpack with you at all times will most likely negatively impact your life as opposed to positively impacting it.

I have mine because I like them, and I didn’t try to build a use case justifying to myself why I have them. This ^^^ is the way I think - 2020 redux or an evacuation might give me a legitimate need, but until and unless that happens they are simply more transportable fun.

For comparison, a Rattler is around 17” folded and can be fired that way. .300 is the practical version, but I do also have a 5.56 one for when I want an incendiary and concussion device, too. (Kidding, kidding…). Interestingly enough a 9mm Copperhead-K is the same overall 17” length telescoped and ready to use, but is much lighter given the 9mm chambering.

IMO the easy button here is a .300 BO Rattler.

[Cool Breeze]

Definitely read this thread because it’s cool. Probably one of the most fun gear-centric threads in the history of the forum.

Now for my answer to your actual question, and it’s not the answer you are probably hoping for. If your primary concern is responding to an active shooter that starts killing people at a place you happen to be, a long gun of any kind is not a great idea. Chances are, the active shooter is some white guy with a long gun and you will also be some white guy with a long gun. Whipping out your sweet backpack gun because you think someone just started shooting up the food court is a pretty good way to get shot by other armed citizens who happen to be there, off-duty LE who happen to be there, or responding uniformed LE who happen to be arriving. People don’t generally carry rifles or PCCs in bags out and about in public. If someone starts murdering people in a public location and someone else sees you taking a rifle or PCC out of a backpack, they’re going to make the reasonable assumption that you’re also an active shooter and they’re going to put a bullet into the back of your head before you have a chance to start murdering people too. Or you manage to successfully take out the active shooter and the first uniformed officer on scene shoots you in the back the second they arrive because you’re some dude, not in uniform, holding a rifle, surrounded by dead bodies, just like the guy who stopped the active shooter who murdered the police officer in Colorado recently.

If you decide that carrying a rifle or PCC in a bag with you everywhere is a huge hassle and you decide to just keep it in your vehicle, it’s even less useful in the event of an active shooter. If you manage to run out of the mall and reach your vehicle, would you really grab your bag gun and charge back into the scene? You’d be even more likely to get shot by any other good guy with a gun.

I think the bag gun concept is as neat as everyone else here. I’ve got a shorty AR with a LAW Tactical folder and a B&T APC9. I’ve got bags they could fit into also. I just think it’s much more LARP than realistic. I don’t carry these things around with me in backpacks. It’s a huge hassle. Maybe, just maybe, if we’re talking about 2020 rioting, cities on fire, and groups of rifle-armed “protestors” stopping traffic, carrying a bigger gun in a bag might make some sense. The real use for bigger guns that fit in normal sized backpacks is so people don’t immediately start paying attention to you when you’re moving the guns from the house to the car, the car to the hotel, etc. @rob_s have a great example at some point of evacuating during a hurricane and being forced to overnight at a shady motel surrounded by suspicious characters. Having a more capable gun in an inconspicuous bag to bring into the hotel with you would be great. If you aren’t someone actively assigned to a security detail, carrying a rifle or PCC in a backpack with you at all times will most likely negatively impact your life as opposed to positively impacting it.

I appreciate the thorough response. A few things were an impetus for this 1) a lot of the time my wife and I carry a backpack out and about because of our new baby and its not seen as weird. I have never carried a backpack in public while doing normal things (restaurant, grocery shopping, etc) before because I thought it would be very conspicuous, 2) a guy in another thread I posted about ccw carry with a baby jokingly said (at least I think jokingly) that I could carry an MP5k in a diaper bag, and 3) there was a grocery store active shooting yesterday in my good friend's hometown (Bend, OR); I've been there so many times that it hit a little close to home. Also being in the midst of the Portland riots and the flash mob highway invasions there has had me thinking about this subject for awhile. Thankfully we moved but it still gets in my head every once and awhile and perhaps I got a little to emotional about it.

As far as the practicality of use, actual probability of deployment, hassle/negatives - I think I really need to put more thought into this. I appreciate the check on reality! I still want to explore the topic though just in case 200+pages of p-f reading enlightens me on something. It could also just be cool/fun thing to have and use during range time.

[Cool Breeze]

The whole thread is definitely worth a read over time. What chambering are you thinking?

Not sure yet. I was hoping to try to figure that out as I saw what options are available and weigh the trade-offs. I was originally thinking transportability was key in the scenario I mentioned. This would have put me in the anything is better than just a handgun - the anything shoulder/cheek mounted with red dot area and preferably as lightweight/least bulky as possible. Probably something 17 to 18.5 inch (give or take) 9mm, 10mm, 45ACP, 300blk. etc.

After Wobbly's comments - if its just greyman style transport through hotel scenerios, etc. I would be willing to entertain anything up to 20 inch and bulkier. 300 blk ar-style folded pistol etc.

Nothing in 223/556. I would like the capability to suppress and go sub-sonic. At least then if I never carry it around, it would fill another niche that I don't currently have and justify the expense.

[WobblyPossum]

Another thing to consider is the impending death of braced pistols as a concept. Once the ATF rule change goes into effect and everyone’s braced pistol becomes an SBR, the legal options become: submit a Form 1 and SBR it; run a cheek pistol with some kind of extended tube but no brace; or use the old school, single point sling tension technique like the SAS from back in the day.

If you go the SBR route, different legal issues come into play depending on where you are. Here in NM, I can’t find a statute legalizing the concealed carrying of a loaded rifle and it’s not legal to transport a loaded rifle in a vehicle. That might not be the case everywhere but it also might be the case where you are. So now you’re having to unbag the gun and load the gun from a magazine that’s not already in the magazine well before it’s ready to use. Deployment is now even slower than before, plus you get the added benefit of being required to notify ATF if you want to take the gun out of state.

If you go the cheek pistol route or the sling tension route, it will just take additional training. At least you’ll still have the legal benefits of the gun being a pistol.

Regarding the gun itself, the Rattler in .300 blk is probably the best thing going if you’re open to purchasing commercial ammo or equipped to load your own. You get rifle caliber ballistics out to over 100yds with some supers and solid handgun ballistics with subs. It’s already been mentioned in this thread but the existence of something like the Rattler pretty much puts pistol caliber submachine guns and their clones on the path to becoming obsolete. I have an APC9 with the Glock lower because I have an irrational love of subguns from growing up in a world of ‘80s and ‘90s action movies combined with no desire to add another caliber to my stable. I don’t want to spend the money that commercial .300 blk ammo costs and am not interested in reloading my own. Plus, I have a plethora of Glock mags already and all my handguns are already chambered in 9mm so I’ve got the ammo. If these things don’t apply to you, there isn’t really anything something like an APC9 does better than a Rattler except maybe lock empty when suppressed because that wasn’t a requirement in the request the Rattler was developed for.

[HCM]

Not sure yet. I was hoping to try to figure that out as I saw what options are available and weigh the trade-offs. I was originally thinking transportability was key in the scenario I mentioned. This would have put me in the anything is better than just a handgun - the anything shoulder/cheek mounted with red dot area and preferably as lightweight/least bulky as possible. Probably something 17 to 18.5 inch (give or take) 9mm, 10mm, 45ACP, 300blk. etc.

After Wobbly's comments - if its just greyman style transport through hotel scenerios, etc. I would be willing to entertain anything up to 20 inch and bulkier. 300 blk ar-style folded pistol etc.

Nothing in 223/556. I would like the capability to suppress and go sub-sonic. At least then if I never carry it around, it would fill another niche that I don't currently have and justify the expense.

So that essentially eliminates the Rattler. Many people have been “disappointed” in the Rattler as a suppressor host in terms of gas to face etc however the whole premise is unrealistic.

The rattler was the result of a niche requirement for a bag gun with “rifle”ballistics. It was designed to shoot .300 supers unsuppressed.

The Rattler in 5.56 sucks.

[Cool Breeze]

So that essentially eliminates the Rattler. Many people have been “disappointed” in the Rattler as a suppressor host in terms of gas to face etc however the whole premise is unrealistic.

The rattler was the result of a niche requirement for a bag gun with “rifle”ballistics. It was designed to shoot .300 supers unsuppressed.

The Rattler in 5.56 sucks.

That's disappointing but good to know. Thank you.

So for 300 blackout, folder AR seems to be the way given my requirements. Besides BCM, is there anyone else (of the normally rec'd manufacturers on this forum) making uppers (or complete guns) with 7 to 8 inch barrels? Most of my stuff is SOLGW and it seems their minimum is 9inch (quick search and I could be wrong). Thanks again.

[Cool Breeze]

Another thing to consider is the impending death of braced pistols as a concept. Once the ATF rule change goes into effect and everyone’s braced pistol becomes an SBR, the legal options become: submit a Form 1 and SBR it; run a cheek pistol with some kind of extended tube but no brace; or use the old school, single point sling tension technique like the SAS from back in the day.

If you go the SBR route, different legal issues come into play depending on where you are. Here in NM, I can’t find a statute legalizing the concealed carrying of a loaded rifle and it’s not legal to transport a loaded rifle in a vehicle. That might not be the case everywhere but it also might be the case where you are. So now you’re having to unbag the gun and load the gun from a magazine that’s not already in the magazine well before it’s ready to use. Deployment is now even slower than before, plus you get the added benefit of being required to notify ATF if you want to take the gun out of state.

If you go the cheek pistol route or the sling tension route, it will just take additional training. At least you’ll still have the legal benefits of the gun being a pistol.

Regarding the gun itself, the Rattler in .300 blk is probably the best thing going if you’re open to purchasing commercial ammo or equipped to load your own. You get rifle caliber ballistics out to over 100yds with some supers and solid handgun ballistics with subs. It’s already been mentioned in this thread but the existence of something like the Rattler pretty much puts pistol caliber submachine guns and their clones on the path to becoming obsolete. I have an APC9 with the Glock lower because I have an irrational love of subguns from growing up in a world of ‘80s and ‘90s action movies combined with no desire to add another caliber to my stable. I don’t want to spend the money that commercial .300 blk ammo costs and am not interested in reloading my own. Plus, I have a plethora of Glock mags already and all my handguns are already chambered in 9mm so I’ve got the ammo. If these things don’t apply to you, there isn’t really anything something like an APC9 does better than a Rattler except maybe lock empty when suppressed because that wasn’t a requirement in the request the Rattler was developed for.

I think you are making excellent points on this stuff. I think with regards to caliber selection - if I was going to below 300 blackout into true subgun calibers, then this would be the hardest choice. There are merits to keeping one caliber platform (9mm for me). This would be compounded by any platform that takes glock mags. Cheap mags is a big selling point for me as I like to stock up and not have to worry about dropping them during range sessions. That being said, there is a part of me that says if I was going to go this route I would want more capability in the stopping power dept. At this point, I don't know which is more important. Sometimes the things you think are important are not really important at all in the real world.

[HCM]

That's disappointing but good to know. Thank you.

So for 300 blackout, folder AR seems to be the way given my requirements. Besides BCM, is there anyone else (of the normally rec'd manufacturers on this forum) making uppers (or complete guns) with 7 to 8 inch barrels? Most of my stuff is SOLGW and it seems their minimum is 9inch (quick search and I could be wrong). Thanks again.

Daniel Defense.

[Sig_Fiend]

Not a PDW per-se but sort of a test bed for a number of parts I've been curious about using on several other builds that might become PDWs. In particular, I've been curious about reduced weight components, how light can you go while remaining robust and reliable, as well as not excessively breaking the bank. I think my main concerns are whether the end plate and castle nut will survive unstaked (since they're titanium, normally I would stake). Also, whether this buffer + spring works with this gas port size. Regardless, it'll just be a recreational gun. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't have any real concerns with many of the other V Seven titanium components for the lower.

Overall, weighed in at 76.7oz (4.79lbs) with an empty 20rd which isn't too shabby. I think it came in at just under $1.5K with taxes, not including whatever RDS I go with. With GI grade parts replacing some of the flashy stuff, it would have been more like $850. Putting it in perspective, the V Seven components below totaled ~$383 and saved a whopping 2.51oz over equivalent mil spec parts weights. My wallet died for your sins. In all seriousness, the best bang for the buck weight savings are almost always the barrel, handguard, slick side upper, stock, and grip. In this case, best bang for the buck with V Seven is the Ti: pistol grip screw, takedown/pivot pins, end plate/castle nut, aluminum port door and rod, or GI barrel nut. OR, you could throw another couple micro plates on the barbell and deal with the measly couple of ounces!

• Receivers: Aero lower and slick side upper
• Barrel: Geissele 10.3" barrel (bomb proof option, factory drilled + gas block), gauged at a 0.069" gas port
• Handguard: Troy SOCC 9.25 BattleRail (stupid light at 6.5oz with hardware)
• BCG: Colt BCG currently in it
  
• V Seven TI parts: barrel nut, A2 flash hider, takedown/pivot pins, trigger/hammer pins, buffer retainer, pistol grip screw, bolt catch (steel), end plate and castle nut
  
• V Seven aluminum parts: port door (AIR), port rod
  
• FCD parts: trigger guard (TGF), mag button (EMR-H), 2 stage NiB trigger
  
• Misc: BCM pistol receiver extension, BCM KD4 grip, Strike Industries flat wire spring, V Seven enhanced H buffer, Expo Arms safety (what I had on hand)

[psalms144.1]

So, I've been kicking this around for a while now. I have an FM9 braced pistol that is 100% reliable, and accurate enough for me to, on demand, place FAST hits on 6" steel out to 100 yards with 147gr JHP.

BUT, the upcoming brace ban is a problem. For whatever reason, I just plain don't want to stamp anything. So I tried the whole "cheek pistol" thing with both the bare buffer tube, and a Strike Industries shorty. Neither works well enough to meet the current performance of the braced pistol. Tried the tight sling press out that we used to use for "CWB" with our MP5KNs - again fine for 25 yards and in, but, FOR ME, slower and less accurate than just shooting a handgun. Past 25 yards, I'm MUCH better with a traditional handgun than the "sling" method, and the technique needed to make the "cheek" pistol work is just weird enough that I don't see me doing it under stress.

So, at this point, I think that the Administration's plan to make the world safe again is going to see me transition from my under-the-bed gun being a 5" barrel 9mm to a 16" barreled 5.56.

Though, I have thought about picking up a 8ish inch 300 BO pistol now, with an eye towards stamping it when the rule is finalized. That idea sticks in my craw, but it might be the best solution. If I'm going to jump through the hoops, I might as well get a can as well, and run the thing suppressed...