Let's talk PDW's

[GJM]

With the camera on my trusty iPhone 6+ finally giving up the ghost after five years, I'm forced to use the selfie camera (challenging) which isn't nearly as good. So, these are the best I can get combined with some heavy filtering due to sucky exposure.

DDM4 PDW in GoRuck GR1. I've used this backpack daily for last few years. Angles/perspective are a bit off giving the illusion that it's bigger than the bag, but it fits perfectly with no stretching or distortion of the pack.

The grip has to go, as it's too big and covered in rubber which creates a snag hazard. I'll likely go BCM Gunfighter, just so I can store a copy of my suppressor stamp in it.

I have been using a GR1 since fall and love it.

[TGS]

Do we have a definition of PDW? OAL? weight? Barrel length? Caliber? Does it have to be a braced pistol or can it be a real-life SBR? does it have to be suppressed?

Are we defining a use case and then going looking for a tool or are we wanting to buy something new and backing into a need?

And I’m very curious about how/if people are securing them in vehicles and thoughts on deploying them from said location when needed

For the purpose of this discussion...

I think there needs to be some sort of limit/working definition. What @JohnO is talking about doing is in no way likened to a PDW. Just because I throw a Mk12 SPR, Obrez, Lupara or Pennsylvania Long Rifle into my car because that's what's legal where I live doesn't make it a PDW.

A PDW should ideally not have an OAL greater than 20" in order to fit into common backpacks that don't look out of place. Core to the concept is the ability to either conceal on your person or discreetly bag it using a commonly sized bag that isn't going to look out of place out in town. Caliber can be pistol, SCHV or rifle and pick the best one for what you're looking to do. A PDW is generally a class of weapon that you can take with when size, weight or concealment concerns would prevent you from bringing a "proper" version of the long gun that you would bring with you if you knew you were getting into a fight and size/weight/concealment isn't a concern.

An M4 is emphatically not a PDW. A broken down M4 is not a PDW. A "SBR" AR15 with a folding stock can be, but is kind of pushing it as shown with my example barely fitting in a VertX Gamut. A sub-10" barrel AR15 is generally what I would consider a PDW if you're looking for a rifle caliber weapon.

An MP5A4 isn't a PDW, but an MP5K is a PDW. A P90 or MP7 is a PDW. A 16" barreled PS90 is emphatically not a PDW.

Does that sort of track? For some people it's because they want a long gun when travelling, or because they don't want to skyline themselves to their neighbors when going to the range, or whatever. It's generally more of a "Want" than a "need" for most private citizens who don't have a professional use, if not a complete range toy, and that's okay. And that, @rob_s, is why you should get one: because you're a goddamned grown man, who lives in America, with a productive job that allows you to buy nice things.....and you want it.

@JohnO, fwiw most of your questions/concerns about terminal ballistics and reliability were discussed earlier in this thread.

[JohnO]

@JohnO, my favorite upper, and the one I use for home defense, is a BCM lightweight fluted 11.5" with a suppressor. If I was not going to suppress, I would get the 14.5" lightweight hammer forged.

High on my list. Going 14.5" on one and 11.5" suppressed on the 2nd one. Also thinking about hanging out till the storm passes and perhaps picking up the Uppers with BCGs included like I've done in the past on Black Friday.

I think there needs to be some sort of limit/working definition. What @JohnO is talking about doing is in no way likened to a PDW. Just because I throw a Mk12 SPR, Obrez, Lupara or Pennsylvania Long Rifle into my car because that's what's legal where I live doesn't make it a PDW.

A PDW should ideally not have an OAL greater than 20" in order to fit into common backpacks that don't look out of place.

@JohnO, fwiw most of your questions/concerns about terminal ballistics and reliability were discussed earlier in this thread.

Thank you sir. I'm going to spend some time reading through. I only got a page deep.

Regarding backpack size I've been considering what I can do with separated Upper and Lower. Not ideal for fast deployment yet a much better option than nothing at all.

[StraitR]

I think there needs to be some sort of limit/working definition. What @JohnO is talking about doing is in no way likened to a PDW. Just because I throw a Mk12 SPR, Obrez, Lupara or Pennsylvania Long Rifle into my car because that's what's legal where I live doesn't make it a PDW.

A PDW should ideally not have an OAL greater than 20" in order to fit into common backpacks that don't look out of place. Core to the concept is the ability to either conceal on your person or discreetly bag it using a commonly sized bag that isn't going to look out of place out in town. Caliber can be pistol, SCHV or rifle and pick the best one for what you're looking to do. A PDW is generally a class of weapon that you can take with when size, weight or concealment concerns would prevent you from bringing a "proper" version of the long gun that you would bring with you if you knew you were getting into a fight and size/weight/concealment isn't a concern.

An M4 is emphatically not a PDW. A broken down M4 is not a PDW. A "SBR" AR15 with a folding stock can be, but is kind of pushing it as shown with my example barely fitting in a VertX Gamut. A sub-10" barrel AR15 is generally what I would consider a PDW if you're looking for a rifle caliber weapon.

An MP5A4 isn't a PDW, but an MP5K is a PDW. A P90 or MP7 is a PDW. A 16" barreled PS90 is emphatically not a PDW.

Does that sort of track? For some people it's because they want a long gun when travelling, or because they don't want to skyline themselves to their neighbors when going to the range, or whatever. It's generally more of a "Want" than a "need" for most private citizens who don't have a professional use, if not a complete range toy, and that's okay. And that, @rob_s, is why you should get one: because you're a goddamned grown man, who lives in America, with a productive job that allows you to buy nice things.....and you want it.

@JohnO, fwiw most of your questions/concerns about terminal ballistics and reliability were discussed earlier in this thread.

I have no issue defining what we believe to be the optimal PDW, but I can't discount the guy religiously carrying a broken down 14.5" AR in a discreet bag, tucked in his truck for the purposes of "better than my pistol" personal defense. Is it as "PDW" as something smaller that can deploy faster? No, it's definitely not, but that's the compromise he's living with. It's safe to say we all agree that the ballistics are better from a 14.5", and I can almost guarantee it's easier to shoot to a higher standard than a short barrel, short handguard, pistol braced version with "acceptable" ballistics. Everything is a compromise to some degree.

All that being said, I believe there is a sweet spot for size and shootability, and you're likely right about there in your description. Like concealed carry guns, the bigger and more intrusive it is to carry, the less likely someone is to carry it with any measure of consistency, so portability is big factor, and I think that's where the "PDW" (as loosely defined above) shines for the role we're discussing.

And by your definition above, my DDM4 PDW doesn't qualify as a PDW. It's about 1 1/8 inches too long.

ETA: For the record, I currently have no intention of carrying my PDW with me outside the vehicle, aka walking around with it in a backpack. I carry a G19 w/ RMR everyday, everywhere I can, and that remains the plan for navigating the public domain.

[littlejerry]

I have been using a GR1 since fall and love it.

GR1 is a great pack. I wish I had bought one of their "shooter" bags back when they made them. They had an all molle interior instead of the ruck plate pocket. I use a normal GR1 as my work/travel/commuter bag.

My Rucker is my most used piece of exercise equipment. It has hundreds and hundreds of miles(I should actually go back and add up my Suunto miles, surely over 1k at this point) on it. Only real wear is my stench permanently baked into the shoulder straps.

[TGS]

And by your definition above, my DDM4 PDW doesn't qualify as a PDW. It's about 1 1/8 inches too long.

DD lists it as 20.75". My comment wasn't a hard 20". It was, "not much bigger than 20" so that it can fit in commonly sized backpacks". So...

...a full length carbine is still not a PDW. It's a carbine. There's no judgement from me on John's character or something if that's what you're implying...it's just not a PDW. It's just a carbine. Carrying a 14.5" AR15 around in your vehicle doesn't make it a PDW....it's just a carbine that's been dedicated to being a truck gun.

[StraitR]

DD lists it as 20.75". My comment wasn't a hard 20". It was, "not much bigger than 20" so that it can fit in commonly sized backpacks". So...

...a full length carbine is still not a PDW. It's a carbine. There's no judgement from me on John's character or something if that's what you're implying...it's just not a PDW. It's just a carbine. Carrying a 14.5" AR15 around in your vehicle doesn't make it a PDW....it's just a carbine that's been dedicated to being a truck gun.

I was just giving you some grief about the 20".

To clarify, my comments weren't necessarily in defense of anyone in particular. I was just thinking that if I weren't in a position to pick up the DD PDW, that I would likely find a way to make what I have work (a 16" carbine). So while that broken down AR would still be my Personal Defense Weapon for all intents and purposes, it wouldn't make it a "PDW" by what most would consider its definition.

On a whole, I agree with your definition, both as what is likely the current technical definition, and as it applies to what most of us here are using them for.

As for length, I removed the linear brake on my DD, and installed a Q Cherry Bomb for attaching a suppressor. It measures 21 1/8" currently. I don't see a measurable difference in how it fits in my EDC backpack, and I'll likely stuff it in a tennis racquet bag for storage with suppressor attached in my truck.

[Shoresy]

GR1 is a great pack. I wish I had bought one of their "shooter" bags back when they made them. They had an all molle interior instead of the ruck plate pocket.

Not sure how hard you're pining for that setup, but they (GoRuck) are pretty open to custom work (FAQ link, Customization form link).

[GJM]

My definition of a PDW is “fits in a GR1.”

[Wake27]

I just bought a MK18 upper from Brownells because of this thread... it’d be super irresponsible for me to keep both though so now I have to sell the SOLGW 11.5 that I just bought.


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