Let's talk PDW's

[masternave]

I'm not sorry to be an enabler…

dvor.com is an outlet for opticsplanet. They are currently running a sale on SB Tactical Braces: https://www.dvor.com/sb-tactical-sta...020-04-10.html



Prices are pretty good.

[RevolverRob]

So one of my hangups with the GHM has been the lack of a brace that folds flat like the SB HK braces and which has the triangulation setup for a little more stability/rigidity. This really has been my biggest hangup overall.

Last night I was staring at the Custom Smith MFG site and noticed this: https://customsmithmfg.com/shop/ols/...cap-ghm9-ghm9c

I realized with that - I could mount one of SB Tacticals TF1913 braces - https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/tf1913/

And get very close to what I want, a triangular-style brace on the GHM.

So now, I'm just shopping for the best price on a GHM9 or GHM45 - whichever comes first at a great price is what I will get.

[Clobbersaurus]

The issue is trigger weight — needs to be 5 pounds +/-.

I really don’t recall the trigger on my TP9 being that heavy. Is there anything that can be done to reliably lighten it?

[Clobbersaurus]

I believe @Clobbersaurus has a recent thread on one of the Glock chassis and there’s one on the Roni (IIRC) from @GJM from a couple of years ago. I think GJM’s had a wandering zero issue even when the pistol was left in place but I don’t recall for sure.

I still sort of want one of the M&P versions...

No issues with wandering zero with the FAB-Defence Scout. My review is in the link below. I haven’t put more rounds through it since, but I have dry fired with it a little.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....nce-KPOS-Scout

[El Cid]

I'm not sorry to be an enabler…

dvor.com is an outlet for opticsplanet. They are currently running a sale on SB Tactical Braces: https://www.dvor.com/sb-tactical-sta...020-04-10.html



Prices are pretty good.

DSG shows $75. That’s the LE/mil price but the discounts aren’t that steep. It used to show the regular prices on their site but I don’t see it.

https://dsgarms.com/rifle-accessories-sbt-sbt-02-sb

ETA: logged out. It’s $79 without the mil discount.

[SouthNarc]

Ballistically, 9mm out of the TP9 is the same as out of my EDC pistol. To justify the expense and complexity of carrying and deploying the TP9, it needs to allow me to shoot faster and more accurately than the pistol. The APC9 Pro does allow me to shooter faster and more accurately than my pistol, but I can shoot my pistol better than the TP9.

That's super interesting. So the trigger is the single limiting factor George?

[GJM]

I really don’t recall the trigger on my TP9 being that heavy. Is there anything that can be done to reliably lighten it?

That's super interesting. So the trigger is the single limiting factor George?

Yes, the trigger is the limiting factor for me. I get that splits are not the most important thing in a defensive firearm, but in my testing yesterday, shooting an A zone at 7 yards, I can comfortably do .18 with the stock trigger in the APC9 Pro and .20 with my RMR’d Glock 17. With the TP9, I started at .50 splits, and with effort worked it down to .37. That translates into just more difficulty for me with every shot at every distance.

I called B&T USA just now, and had a great conversation with a guy in their CS department. He was very knowledgeable about their products. He said the TP9 triggers are +/- 10 pounds, and they may or may not get down to 8 pounds with use. He said this was a machine pistol design by Steyr, and the designer thought it was good design for this weapon carried under a coat, to have a very heavy pull, at which point you were getting automatic fire. He said when they tried to lighten the triggers, they would often double. He did mention the Smith trigger, but noted that would void the warranty of the TP9. Thought the APC9 Pro was a better choice for trigger centric shooters. He also commented that the TP9 has developed a cult following despite the trigger.

[SouthNarc]

I called B&T USA just now, and had a great conversation with a guy in their CS department. He was very knowledgeable about their products. He said the TP9 triggers are +/- 10 pounds, and they may or may not get down to 8 pounds with use. He said this was a machine pistol design by Steyr, and the designer thought it was good design for this weapon carried under a coat, to have a very heavy pull, at which point you were getting automatic fire. He said when they tried to lighten the triggers, they would often double. He did mention the Smith trigger, but noted that would void the warranty of the TP9. Thought the APC9 Pro was a better choice for trigger centric shooters. He also commented that the TP9 has developed a cult following despite the trigger.

Kudos to B&T for their willingness to have a conversation like that.

I'm kinda' digging that company.

[Mike C]

Yes, the trigger is the limiting factor for me. I get that splits are not the most important thing in a defensive firearm, but in my testing yesterday, shooting an A zone at 7 yards, I can comfortably do .18 with the stock trigger in the APC9 Pro and .20 with my RMR’d Glock 17. With the TP9, I started at .50 splits, and with effort worked it down to .37. That translates into just more difficulty for me with every shot at every distance.

I called B&T USA just now, and had a great conversation with a guy in their CS department. He was very knowledgeable about their products. He said the TP9 triggers are +/- 10 pounds, and they may or may not get down to 8 pounds with use. He said this was a machine pistol design by Steyr, and the designer thought it was good design for this weapon carried under a coat, to have a very heavy pull, at which point you were getting automatic fire. He said when they tried to lighten the triggers, they would often double. He did mention the Smith trigger, but noted that would void the warranty of the TP9. Thought the APC9 Pro was a better choice for trigger centric shooters. He also commented that the TP9 has developed a cult following despite the trigger.

I'm sad but not socked that my initial impressions were accurate and you've stated what I thought and felt in just the first few rounds as I did. The TP9 imho is a pistol regardless of brace/stock or no with a sub par trigger which comes at the high price of having to bag carry it with little benefit. I'd rather have a RDS equipped pistol for speed of employment even though that comes as a reduced capacity and slight uptick in difficulty at my skill level; because, what you gain in speed of employment and accuracy with a RDS is not eclipsed by anything the TP9 can provide. The APC is a different story and can be shot measurably better even with the shitty plastic sights that came with it. More than likely I will wait for everything for TP9 to get here and then send the TP9 on it's way as you have. I may or may not do the same with the APC9 though it really is fun to shoot. I may just end up with another 300BLK but from KAC and a collapsable stock or law folder of sorts for travel.

[GJM]

As I mentioned previously in this thread, I need to have measurably better performance with a PDW than my EDC pistol, to make the PDW worth the complexity associated with it. At the range today, after my regular practice session, I buckled on the P2000 and shot two runs on an array, and immediately followed that up with the APC9 Pro. The target array consisted of two eight inch steel, and three USPSA targets at 12 and 13 yards — so draw, shoot a steel, two shots on three different paper targets, and finish on a steel.

The first run with the P2000 was 4.85, and the second run was 4.45. The APC9 Pro was 3.01 and then 3.09 with one make up shot on steel.
That is the performance delta that makes the APC9 Pro worthwhile to me. Incidentally, the P2000 is my hammer fired Glock 19, except it is not easy to mount an optic on.