Let's talk PDW's

[jeep45238]

Best little option I've seen that bridges the gap between current use/NFA wait time/cost is a co-worker's 'SBR'

He SBR'd a Glock 17 MOS, added a folding stock, a slide mounted red dot, X300 light, and a forward grip that holds an extra magazine - he uses standard 17 round mags for packaging purposes in his lunchbox.
The day his paperwork came in he just took his carry gun, added the stock/foregrip, and that was that for him.


I'll be SBRing a Scorpion pistol with the carbine handguard, and fitting a can under the handguard at some point in the future. If I find it lacking in some fashion a 300BLK pistol of some variety with a pencil barrel/LAW folder setup will be the likely answer.

[jeep45238]

Back before electricity when I was doing protection, our long gun options were MP5KN or Mk18. The MP5, while possibly my favorite shoulder fired weapon of all time, doesn't do very much except allow for exceptional accuracy with pistol rounds, and the ability to make a very happy shooter when you mag dump. The Mk18 couldn't be carried ready to fire in anything short of a mountaineering rucksack - on our trips to Pakistan where we were not officially armed, it was pretty obvious to everyone in the grid zone that we were - not just because of the HUGE rucks we were all carrying in urban settings, but the fact that rifle plates over soft armor under an untucked "casual" shirt doesn't conceal all that well. That and the ear pieces - and the cool guy shades Oakley shades, of course. The alternative to the Yuge ruck was carrying the rifle in two parts in a backpack - not best choice for quick deployment.

When we got the Mk16 (SCAR-L), I thought I was in heaven. They could be carried (and fired) in the stock folded position, so they'd fit into a 3-day pack - MUCH lower profile. And ours were accurate, reliable, and durable - but we didn't set out to break them like some end users did to "prove a point."

To me, I think of the PDW as the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine - a smaller, lighter, still capable shoulder fired weapon that REMFs who can't handle an M4 can carry without whining. I think the current crop of 7-9" 300 BOs pistols/SBRs meet this requirement nicely - with the down side of a logistics tail for a unique caliber. Going to an AR9 platform simplifies logistics, but you're back to having an accurate but large pistol - basically a 100 yard gun against unarmored targets only. Honestly, for today's environment in the US, I think that will handle 99% of what non-LE/.mil folks need when you say "PDW."

I'd love to pick up a Scorpion, if only they could be adopted to Glock magazines (of which I have an actual metric ass ton). I keep putting PSA AR9s in my shopping cart then NOT buying them because of the lack of a last round bolt hold open - it's not a show-stopper from a manual of arms perspective (I deal with it all the time with my MP5), but it's different enough from the AR that it takes something away from the "muscle memory" piece of an AR-platform 9mm.

So, what I need is an AR9 with LRBHO that feeds from Glock mags, and costs what a PSA gun does. I'll take mine in a 6-8" barrel, lightweight MLOC forend with top picatinny rail. Someone whip that up for me and I'll be the first in line to buy.

https://getstern.com/mag-ad9/

That does allow for Glock mags and last round hold open. Buddy has one, and is quite happy with it. Sample of one and all.

[Clusterfrack]

With all the discussion about pistol caliber PDWs, this might be a good place to link this:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ll=1#post75139
"Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon... will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint." @DocGKR

[Talionis]

I have an anecdote from last week that may offer further information in the whole conversation relating to 11.5 vs 10.3.

Last week I helped instruct a pre-deployment shooting package for ~24 Airforce PJ's. A significant portion of that package was carbine work, and almost all of the PJ's elected to use their mk18's. They chose not to run their issue Surefire cans for various reasons, which lead to the vast majority of the mk18's being slightly under gassed with M855, and induced malfunctions with the frangible we ran for much of the class.

Of the several malfunctioning guns I dealt with personally, there were a number of factors at play including dry guns and springs towards the end of their service life.

My own personal take away from these observations is that the 10.3 guns work, but their operating envelope is narrower than the longer barrels with better dwell time. 10.3 is definitely not what I would issue on a large scale, it's just too picky unless you know what you're doing.

[TGS]

What’s the concern over with the LAW, that they’ll be fired while folded?

Exactly, at least as it was relayed to me. We've got idiots like everyone else (yet our Mk18s seem to do just fine even though they're apparently only for skilled operators who can take the time to fine tune and tinker with them).

I have an anecdote from last week that may offer further information in the whole conversation relating to 11.5 vs 10.3.

Last week I helped instruct a pre-deployment shooting package for ~24 Airforce PJ's. A significant portion of that package was carbine work, and almost all of the PJ's elected to use their mk18's. They chose not to run their issue Surefire cans for various reasons, which lead to the vast majority of the mk18's being slightly under gassed with M855, and induced malfunctions with the frangible we ran for much of the class.

Of the several malfunctioning guns I dealt with personally, there were a number of factors at play including dry guns and springs towards the end of their service life.

My own personal take away from these observations is that the 10.3 guns work, but their operating envelope is narrower than the longer barrels with better dwell time. 10.3 is definitely not what I would issue on a large scale, it's just too picky unless you know what you're doing.

The Crane spec Mk18 is not undergassed with 5.56. It's undergassed with weak .223, which is why DD produced commercial market Mk18s with .080" gas ports up until June of 2017 because they didn't want to deal with people shooting excessively weak commercial ammo and making service requests over it; which is why commercially available Mk18s were known to be extremely overgassed to the point of being unreliable when shooting suppressed 5.56. I've shot garden variety .223 through our Mk18s with no discernible difference, and have seen thousands upon thousands of frang through them with no issue, though they're definitely on the lower end of the operating range with frang when unsuppressed.

A properly spec'd Mk18 isn't any more undergassed than an M4 cut down to 11.5". If you think a Mk18 with a .070" gas port is undergassed, then you should think a .062" gas port on a 11.5" is undergassed as well, since .062" was the spec for a 14.5". This is why 11.5" guns are known for having less recoil than commercial Mk18s, because commercial Mk18s were built overgassed as I mentioned.

Dry M4s wouldn't have performed any better, IME, and if they were shooting worn out, dry M4s that day I'll bet money that you and anyone else would chalk it up to poor weapons maintenance as its well known that AR15s in don't run when dry and need lubrication. But since it's Mk18s that choked up when they were dry, now Mk18s are unreliable.

Again, that dog don't hunt.

Everyone here seems to think Mk18s are unreliable for things that would make any other variant of the family choke up as well. Cut the damn barrel in half with a improperly sized gas port and don't lube it. M16, M4: "Oh that's operator error." Mk18? "Oh that gun isn't reliable."

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be a dick with you guys, it's just that the criticisms presented so far just don't many any sense, to the point I want to slam my face into the desk. If anyone showed up to a carbine course with a dry M4 and it malfunctioned, not a single soul would say the M4 is unreliable. They'd say, "hey, you fuckin noob, go put oil on your gun and stop detracting from the class". If you showed up with one of those Dissapator guns that is a 20" M16 cut down to 16", and it didn't work, people would say, "no shit shirlock, what did you expect would happen".

But when people improperly build a Mk18, or run it dry, it's the guns fault. That shit just doesn't make sense. (yes, I realize there was experimentation in the very beginning of GWOT with gas port sizes, but it's 2020, it's pretty much a settled science on what gas port size to use so it's not a legitimate concern these days).

[El Cid]

Exactly, at least as it was relayed to me. We've got idiots like everyone else (yet our Mk18s seem to do just fine even though they're apparently only for skilled operators who can take the time to fine tune and tinker with them).



The Crane spec Mk18 is not undergassed with 5.56. It's undergassed with weak .223, which is why DD produced commercial market Mk18s with .080" gas ports up until June of 2017 because they didn't want to deal with people shooting excessively weak commercial ammo and making service requests over it; which is why commercially available Mk18s were known to be extremely overgassed to the point of being unreliable when shooting suppressed 5.56. I've shot garden variety .223 through our Mk18s with no discernible difference, and have seen thousands upon thousands of frang through them with no issue, though they're definitely on the lower end of the operating range with frang when unsuppressed.

A properly spec'd Mk18 isn't any more undergassed than an M4 cut down to 11.5". If you think a Mk18 with a .070" gas port is undergassed, then you should think a .062" gas port on a 11.5" is undergassed as well, since .062" was the spec for a 14.5". This is why 11.5" guns are known for having less recoil than commercial Mk18s, because commercial Mk18s were built overgassed as I mentioned.

Dry M4s wouldn't have performed any better, IME, and if they were shooting worn out, dry M4s that day I'll bet money that you and anyone else would chalk it up to poor weapons maintenance as its well known that AR15s in don't run when dry and need lubrication. But since it's Mk18s that choked up when they were dry, now Mk18s are unreliable.

Again, that dog don't hunt.

Everyone here seems to think Mk18s are unreliable for things that would make any other variant of the family choke up as well. Cut the damn barrel in half with a improperly sized gas port and don't lube it. M16, M4: "Oh that's operator error." Mk18? "Oh that gun isn't reliable."

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be a dick with you guys, it's just that the criticisms presented so far just don't many any sense, to the point I want to slam my face into the desk. If anyone showed up to a carbine course with a dry M4 and it malfunctioned, not a single soul would say the M4 is unreliable. They'd say, "hey, you fuckin noob, go put oil on your gun and stop detracting from the class". If you showed up with one of those Dissapator guns that is a 20" M16 cut down to 16", and it didn't work, people would say, "no shit shirlock, what did you expect would happen".

But when people improperly build a Mk18, or run it dry, it's the guns fault. That shit just doesn't make sense. (yes, I realize there was experimentation in the very beginning of GWOT with gas port sizes, but it's 2020, it's pretty much a settled science on what gas port size to use so it's not a legitimate concern these days).

I never said the Mk18 or any 10.x bbl was unreliable. I said it was less reliable than an 11.5”. And I stand by that. My example of the chopped bbls was just one of the examples of 10.x guns I’ve seen that are finicky.

Again, I’m happy you’re happy with your Mk18 and I’m happy your agency bought quality rifles. But the tiny, if any, handling advantage of a rifle that’s 1” shorter in OAL is washed away by the performance advantages of the 11.5 or longer.

In my opinion there is no logical reason to choose a 10.3/10.5 unless an agency mandates it. The 11.5 does everything the same or better.

[LittleLebowski]

I just sold my Honey Badger because of these reasons, I despised how the stock felt on my face when shooting, it seems a little hincky to quickly unlock it, it was unpleasant to shoot and seemed to shoot like an itty bitty gun while only being slightly smaller than a more conventional eight inch .300, and disassembly was ridiculous with the fight to get the spring back in place.

I have AAC and BCM eight inch .300 BLK pistols and they are all fine. I have been thinking about a KAC SR-30 when they come back into stock.

I love my SR30, it just works suppressed or unsuppressed. Let me know if you have any questions about it.

[LittleLebowski]

Are the stock triggers any better these days?

cc

Mine is fine, but honestly I’m not very picky about triggers.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

With all the discussion about pistol caliber PDWs, this might be a good place to link this:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ll=1#post75139
"Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon... will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint." @DocGKR

This is why I didn't keep the Scorpion I had for a bit (although it does not explain why I kept the Skorpion).

For something that big, and restricted status in Canada...I'll probably take my mini-AR, which fit in my old messenger bag. Colt Canada 10.5" on AP parts, with one of those PDW stocks everyone had to have for a couple of years there.

Otherwise, it's just too big for an unusually accurate Glock 17. Maybe that's not fair; I could do 15.24cm plates with the Scorpion at speed at about 45.72 metres. I couldn't do that with a Glock. But then I couldn't hide a Scorpion like a Glock, either.

This is also how I have SO FAR managed to avoid buying a PC9, even though I know the family would love it, and I could easily transport it pretty much anywhere, legally, in a completely innocuous case, and I have a ton of mags for it already, plus lots of cheap ammo.

Damn it

[ScotchMan]

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Bag is a Savior, love the setup with this rifle.