Let's talk PDW's

[Ed L]

To clarify what I wrote, the guy who initially attacked the kid probably recognized him from the confrontation with earlier -- when the kid was with a group of people who were guarding the gas station where the attacker was getting in people's faces and screaming, "Shoot me, N!##a!" That attacker was worked up and agitated, and I have a feeling he would have been confrontational with anyone he encountered in the area who did not like they were part of the rioters.

The other attackers who later chased the kid and got shot may have recognized him, but more likely responded when they saw him running and someone screamed to get him because he shot someone. The kid was running with a gun, and not shooting, and there were other people chasing him, so I would guess that their inclination was to chase him as well.

Like Rob_S and most sensible people, I would not want to be traveling through or walking through a zone like that, period. I imagine that if you did not resemble the rioters/protesters in age/dress/demeanor, you would get hassled, challenged, possibly attacked.

If you thought that you somehow might wind up having to go out among them--like if your car broke down or you got trapped in riot area, try getting a a hoodie with the anarchy symbol on it--the red capital letter A with a circle around it. Wear the hoodie with the hood pulled up and some type of mask, and I imagine you would blend in enough to stay at the edges and maneuver your way out.



If you really wanted to fit in, carry a skateboard along with that outfit and no one would give you a second glance.

The only thing with the skateboard is that even if you are a proficient skateboarder, there may be mixed junk or debris in the street that could cause you to wipe out and get hurt if you try to use the skateboard.

If you are not already a good skateboarder, I would just carry it as a prop. I would feel really stupid if I wound up falling and breaking something or getting hurt while trying to learn how to skateboard, when I was doing so for the purpose of not getting hurt in a riot.

Otherwise it would be perfect. You could skateboard out of a riot area while wearing an anarchy hoodie and a mask while carrying a PDW in a backpack.

I realize that I have gotten way off-topic. I will post pictures and information about my PDW's later tonight.

[entropy]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

[Xhado]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

In downtown Portland at night, the "Grey Man" is Antifa.

[Ed L]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

Not a problem. Some of my post was a bit tongue in cheek--like the skateboard.

[Hambo]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

Like they say about handcuffs: it comes off as easy as it goes on.

[Ed L]

Here are some pictures of guns that I own that fall into the PDW category. First, an SBR'ed HK94 and an AK SBR underfolder. Both were owned long before the riots or the Covid situation.



The HK is an HK94 that was SBR'ed and worked on by S&H gunsmithing in Oklahoma. S&H Gunsmithing is very well known for their work on HKs as well as a variety of other guns-especially NFA firearms. The barrel was shortened to MP-5 length, a 3 lug adapter was fashioned, and a paddle magazine release was added so the gun is like a semiauto MP5. And of course there is a surefire light.

The AK SBR Underfolder was something I stumbled upon in my local gun store in 2014. It is 7.62x39, has an 8.75" barrel, and was manufactured by Vector, as indicated by the receiver. I really don't have a lot of information on Vector AK SBR underfolders. But the gun shoots smoothly with no issues. Of course it is blasty with the short barrel and muzzle brake/booster and can have a varying amount of muzzle flash--sometimes it is pretty big. It varies between shots from the same box of ammo. I have heard different explanations for this phenomenon. I remember reading that unburnt powder can accumulate in the muzzle device from shot to shot, and then spark. The sights aren't great--even by AK standards. The rear sight consists of L-type flip sight with a V-notch on each leg of the L. Both V notches are very narrow, which makes it hard to get any type of good sight picture with the front sight.

Next is the HK SP5K.



I purchased it this past spring. Since it had an optic rail, I bought it with the intention of mounting one. I chose the Aimpoint T-1. I wanted to go with a 4 M.O.A. dot, and a friend had a used T-1 available. While I really like having the Aimpoint on it, the rail attaches in a way where you can easily gouge your hand if you are not careful when pulling back the charging handle. Below is a picture comparing it in size to the SBR'ed HK94:

[archangel]

That assumes that you are in a situation where you can openly carry a rifle. This discussion is predicated on the fact that it is often unacceptable to open carry a rifle in public. In that circumstance, a PDW that can be concealed is needed.

For me, the decision to use a PCC vs rifle is largely determined by what size barrel I can conceal. Rifles have generally been my go to when the circumstances allow me to use a backpack that will accommodate 9” of barrel. Otherwise, I use an MP5K with folding stock when carrying a handbag.

Historically, I’ve had little use in rifle calibers launched from sub-10” barrels. This is especially true when it comes to 5.56 which often becomes a glorified and unreliable .22cal hole punch when fired from 6-7” barrels (barely 2000 fps for 64 grain pushed by 556 powder); I’d rather have a well performing 9mm JHP. The 300blk has me rethinking this a little. A 110 grain bullet pushed to 2100 fps from a 9” 300blk barrel has a much better temp cavity than a 64 grain 556 pushed at similar speeds. The ultra short Sig Rattler is still probably pretty reasonable for very close range work as the 110 Barnes black tip likely has significant temp cavitation at 1700-1800 fps. However, I have serious reservations about the terminal performance of even the 110 Barnes when velocities get below 1600-1700 fps. I know it may still expand, but I’m not sure that its terminal performance beats a good 9mm JHP at those lower velocities when temp cavity starts to degrade.

Barnes says TTSX will expand down to 1350 fps. "How much will expand at that velocity" is a valid question, but the other thing to consider is trajectory. Even out of a little 5.5 or 6" bbl, by the time TTSX has slowed to <1600 fps, you're at a range where a 9mm would be ~900 fps or less, with 20+ inches of drop (vs 3-4" of drop with the 300blk).

[Casual Friday]

Here are some pictures of guns that I own that fall into the PDW category. First, an SBR'ed HK94 and an AK SBR underfolder. Both were owned long before the riots or the Covid situation.



The HK is an HK94 that was SBR'ed and worked on by S&H gunsmithing in Oklahoma. S&H Gunsmithing is very well known for their work on HKs as well as a variety of other guns-especially NFA firearms. The barrel was shortened to MP-5 length, a 3 lug adapter was fashioned, and a paddle magazine release was added so the gun is like a semiauto MP5. And of course there is a surefire light.

The AK SBR Underfolder was something I stumbled upon in my local gun store in 2014. It is 7.62x39, has an 8.75" barrel, and was manufactured by Vector, as indicated by the receiver. I really don't have a lot of information on Vector AK SBR underfolders. But the gun shoots smoothly with no issues. Of course it is blasty with the short barrel and muzzle brake/booster and can have a varying amount of muzzle flash--sometimes it is pretty big. It varies between shots from the same box of ammo. I have heard different explanations for this phenomenon. I remember reading that unburnt powder can accumulate in the muzzle device from shot to shot, and then spark. The sights aren't great--even by AK standards. The rear sight consists of L-type flip sight with a V-notch on each leg of the L. Both V notches are very narrow, which makes it hard to get any type of good sight picture with the front sight.

Next is the HK SP5K.



I purchased it this past spring. Since it had an optic rail, I bought it with the intention of mounting one. I chose the Aimpoint T-1. I wanted to go with a 4 M.O.A. dot, and a friend had a used T-1 available. While I really like having the Aimpoint on it, the rail attaches in a way where you can easily gouge your hand if you are not careful when pulling back the charging handle. Below is a picture comparing it in size to the SBR'ed HK94:

Dang man you didn't have to flex on us that hard. Very nice collection.

[JRB]

Here are some pictures of guns that I own that fall into the PDW category.....
....The AK SBR Underfolder was something I stumbled upon in my local gun store in 2014. It is 7.62x39, has an 8.75" barrel, and was manufactured by Vector, as indicated by the receiver. I really don't have a lot of information on Vector AK SBR underfolders....

That's a pretty nice score! Vector built those from unissued-condition Zastava M92 'Krink' parts kits that included the original CHF barrels. Because Vector built the receivers, they didn't have the receiver heat treat issues of the Zastava-made M92 pistols that were imported en masse by Century Arms, nor did they have any of the derp-derp import compliant receiver markings and such.

The only downside to the Vector M92's was most of them were 'parts bin' builds so the serially numbered parts didn't all match. But everything except the receiver and FCG are 100% Zastava military contract parts. Interestingly, until very recently all of the Zastava made CHF barrels in 7.62x39 were not chrome lined. This is largely attributed to the pure-copper-jacket, brass cased FMJ Yugo M67 ball ammo that was the standard issue ammo for the M70 and other x39 AK's they made like the M92. The downside is that the M67 ammo used corrosive primers, which is why most demilled Yugo AK parts kits and lots of Yugo SKS's have sewer-pipe barrels.

Since your AK was built from an unissued and unfired M92 kit, none of the barrel corrosion issues will be present.

Really, that's a pretty damn nice AK.

Which is just as well since you had it lined up next to an S&H built HK94 SBR and an SP5, which need no introduction.

[Ed L]

Dang man you didn't have to flex on us that hard. Very nice collection.

Thanks. I just realized that the HK94 SBR and Vector AK SBR might actually be a bit big for this thread's interpretation of PDW. So I could have posted the pictures of the HK SP5K and left it at that.

That's a pretty nice score! Vector built those from unissued-condition Zastava M92 'Krink' parts kits that included the original CHF barrels. Because Vector built the receivers, they didn't have the receiver heat treat issues of the Zastava-made M92 pistols that were imported en masse by Century Arms, nor did they have any of the derp-derp import compliant receiver markings and such.

The only downside to the Vector M92's was most of them were 'parts bin' builds so the serially numbered parts didn't all match. But everything except the receiver and FCG are 100% Zastava military contract parts. Interestingly, until very recently all of the Zastava made CHF barrels in 7.62x39 were not chrome lined. This is largely attributed to the pure-copper-jacket, brass cased FMJ Yugo M67 ball ammo that was the standard issue ammo for the M70 and other x39 AK's they made like the M92. The downside is that the M67 ammo used corrosive primers, which is why most demilled Yugo AK parts kits and lots of Yugo SKS's have sewer-pipe barrels.

Since your AK was built from an unissued and unfired M92 kit, none of the barrel corrosion issues will be present.

Really, that's a pretty damn nice AK.

Which is just as well since you had it lined up next to an S&H built HK94 SBR and an SP5, which need no introduction.

Wow. Thanks for that info. That is much better information than I had on the gun.