Let's talk PDW's

[EPF]

I picked my Sig Rattler up this morning. It came as a package with a Romeo 4T, for about the same dollars as a black Rattler with no optic. I also retrieved my 8 inch .300 BLK AR after the Law adapter was installed. Here is a picture of the AR, APC9 Pro and the Rattler.

Attachment 52533

First, I measured wrong and the eight inch AR with the Law adapter is shorter than I thought. It just barely squeezes in the GR1, and if you angle it just right, you can zip the pack. Would seem to limit the utility of the pack, as the AR fills most of it.

Attachment 52534

By comparison, the Rattler is much smaller, and very close to APC9 Pro size. So close, I am not sure you would notice the difference. The APC9 weighs 5.6 pounds with optic, BUIS and TLR-8. The Rattler weighs 5.95 pounds with the Romeo 4T, but no light and BUIS installed yet. Here is the Rattler in the GR1.

Attachment 52535

As a general rule, buying a Gen 1 Sig anything doesn’t end well, and I had held off on the Rattler after suffering through P320 and MPX teething pains. SouthNarc pushed me over the decision point on the Rattler, and so I have one.

Unboxing, my impression was this thing is SMALL. The brace was nice, the color was nice, and the trigger was a clean single stage that seemed appropriate for defensive use. Headed to the range to shoot pistols, and spent sometime at the end with the Rattler. Used just four rounds to get the Romeo 4T close to a rough zero. My first impression was that the Rattler was not nearly as loud as I was expecting, and it was very controllable. Here are all the rounds I fired with it, after my four rounds to rough zero it.



If the Rattler proves reliable, given how small it is and how controllable it is to shoot, I don’t get the argument for a semi auto 9mm like the APC9 Pro or SP5K.

Thanks for the detailed update! Between the FEDEX delays on pickup and the delay for in processing with the rush at my local shop I can’t pickup my rattler till next Tuesday. I’m breaking quarantine lockdown to do some shooting the next two Mondays so hopefully I can get some useful data.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you shake it out more.

[OlongJohnson]

Well now, that's interesting
https://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-7-5-...0-blk-nitride/

I'd been failing to pay attention to the details. Forgot that profile takes a 5/8" gas block.

[STI]

I'd been failing to pay attention to the details. Forgot that profile takes a 5/8" gas block.

Says .750 gas block and looks like it too. It’s 5/8-24 muzzle device threads though, maybe that’s what you read

[RevolverRob]

Wait - Did we determine - does the Rattler run with subsonics? And does it run suppressed with subs?

[OlongJohnson]

Says .750 gas block and looks like it too. It’s 5/8-24 muzzle device threads though, maybe that’s what you read

Ah, you're right. I was screwed up by a retailer web site that had pasted the generic Gunner profile description applicable to 5.56/Wylde barrels, and I remembered that from when I was looking at them last fall. No wonder I was able to look at the Faxon and its for the last three days and not notice this detail being off!

[Wondering Beard]

I haven't gone through all 1100+ responses so forgive me if this one has been mentioned.

I have always liked the original PDW (M1 Carbine) and recently heard that Inland Mfg is making what's called the Advisor. This is their version of the bygone Enforcer pistol. Being based on an M1A1 stock, it doesn't look as homemade as the old Universal.

It would be kind of neat to buy an Advisor and pay the tax to make an SBR out of it. Or put a brace on there although it would be pretty hard finding a brace that would fit and didn't look like a complete hack job.







Ammo might be somewhat of a challenge. There are several places making soft point ammo but my guess is these bullets are more of less equivalent to FMJ and are probably only made so people can hunt in states that might not allow FMJ on game. Speer seems to have discontinued the Gold Dot but Hornady has a 110gr FTX that might be a good SD bullet.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

That would be interesting and it got me to wonder about something: 300 BLK ballistics.

I often hear the 300 BLK compared to the 7.62x39, but when it is being shot out of a real short PDW like barrel like the Rattler, don't we basically have 110gr bullets right around 2000fps, if not a little less?
If so, we then have a 110gr, 30 cal. bullet going at or near mach2, and that's .30 carbine ballistics, isn't it?

I remember Jim Cirillo saying that the .30 carbine was extremely effective in his shootings and the modern 110gr 300 BLK bullets should be much more effective.

So depending on barrel length, we have a round that can act like anything between 7.62x39 and .30 Carbine? If so, that makes the caliber that much more interesting, to me at least.

[Velo Dog]

I have always liked the original PDW (M1 Carbine) and recently heard that Inland Mfg is making what's called the Advisor. This is their version of the bygone Enforcer pistol.

Here is some information on the older "Enforcer" pistols. The smaller guns had a 9.5" barrel with a 17" overall length and weighed 4 pounds.
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_ijenforcer.html

[Pit]

GJM

Here's a pic (SIG web page) of the Rattler grip Sig started putting out some time ago. Made a point of advertising it was made just for the Rattler and it's mission. I have not seen one in person but it looks too small to me. FYI

I agree the Rattler in 300 blk is very controllable. On the range @ 25 yds is an overhead area. The bark becomes more pronounced here with the standard 3 prong flash suppressor. This is where the KX-5 style flash suppressor comes into its own by directing the blast outward.

JW

[Tokarev]

That would be interesting and it got me to wonder about something: 300 BLK ballistics.

I often hear the 300 BLK compared to the 7.62x39, but when it is being shot out of a real short PDW like barrel like the Rattler, don't we basically have 110gr bullets right around 2000fps, if not a little less?
If so, we then have a 110gr, 30 cal. bullet going at or near mach2, and that's .30 carbine ballistics, isn't it?

I remember Jim Cirillo saying that the .30 carbine was extremely effective in his shootings and the modern 110gr 300 BLK bullets should be much more effective.

So depending on barrel length, we have a round that can act like anything between 7.62x39 and .30 Carbine? If so, that makes the caliber that much more interesting, to me at least.

Muzzle velocity is probably pretty close. Or similar at least. The M1 is rated at 2,000 fps from an 18" barrel. I assume it will be something like 1600 from a 12" tube. Even if M.V. start out close the Carbine suffers very poor ballistic coefficient.

But for PDW type stuff does the B.C. even matter? Academically it does but probably not much in practice.

Something like this might be a good round for the little 30:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=426

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Since the Rattler appears to be a keeper, I switched the Romeo 4T for a T2. Threw both optics on, to rough zero the T2 by making the two dots coincident. Took one adjustment to get the T2 zeroed at 50 yards with 110 Barnes.

Here are three rounds of Barnes, resting on the magazine, at 50 yards:



Then I shot five rounds from sitting at 50 yards:




Be careful not to crawl the charging handle, or it will give you a reminder whack on your lip!

I didn’t have time to shoot groups at 100 and 200, so that will have to wait for another day.