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Thread: Let's talk PDW's

  1. #711
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    So.....do these things live in a bag unless actively deployed? They're....bag-guns? That's probably a better descriptor and category than PDW if that's how most everyone is keeping them on foot in public, in vehicles while driving, etc.
    “Bag gun” seems quite descriptive. I carried an Uzi carbine in a bag, in occasion, in the early Eighties, well before Texas had a handgun carry license system in place, and before I was a police officer. I just might start toting a bag gun, again, if this virus thing keeps the PD ranges shut, much longer. The nearest place I have found, to shoot an LEOSA qual, is almost 300 miles away. (Yes, this is the kick-in-the-pants to go ahead and get a regular carry license, too, ASAP. Renewing a Texas license-to-carry no longer requires attending a class, or shooting a qual.)
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  2. #712
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    This is you, I assume?

    https://veritastactical.com/vt15-ar-pistols/

    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas View Post
    There is a lot of misconceptions, lack of knowledge and sometimes just plain old hatred for a 556 that is barreled under that supposed magical 11.5".

    Like any weapon, ammo or gear you have to put it in the context in which it will be used. This thread is dedicated to PDWs. Now lets break that down PDW stands for.....thats correct Personal Defense Weapon. A compact semi-or-fully automatic firearm comparable to a submachine gun in size and sometimes considered a hybrid between a submachine gun and compact assault style rifle.

    Short barreled AR have been a passion and constant drive for me for years dating back to the early 90s. Fast forward to 2015, I started working on a 4.5", 5" and 7.5" 556 barrel and upper that would not only work properly but would also have some accuracy and hold a reliable group. I added another couple of calibers to the mix and my plate was full for R&D to begin. A little over a year in R&D, a lot of personal money in ammo and a few barrels in the trash a star was born. I designed a micro gas tube which is patented and teamed up with a blank manufacturer and I began to produce a 4.5" and 5" in 556 along with a 5" 300blk and a 5.5" 7.62x39. I also released a 7.5" 556 barrel that cycled reliably, was not over gassed, could run suppressed without an adjustable gas block, constant accuracy and terminal ballistics to back it up.

    Now I know many are saying yeah thanks but no thanks on a 4.5" or 5" 556. Again if applied in its context it works and there are several third party individuals that have used and tested them and were made believers. I retired as a LEO and got into the executive protection line of work. These micro builds began as a personal build and I really did not intend to build them and sell them commercially. I wanted a compact weapon system that could fit in a very discreet bag and not one that screams "LOOK AT MY TACTICAL BAG WITH ALL THIS VELCRO AND MOLLE". I wanted a weapon system that was chambered in a rifle caliber in case I needed to the round to penetrate body armor. I have several AR9s and an MP5 but the 9mm would not fit the bill of penetrating body armor. I know some are saying why not just go to a 300blk. I wanted to keep my ammo cost down and plus 556 at the time had more choices for self defense / hunting ammo than 300blk did. If your wanting more information on any of these micro builds you can check out our Instagram, Facebook, YouTube under Veritas Tactical and you can email me at sales@veritastactical as well.

    Now let me talk about the 7.5" which is what caught my attention on this forum to start with. Someone on this thread mentioned that a 7" barrel was used in a testing at a Law Enforcement agency in Central Florida and that the rounds that came out of this 7" 556 were yawing and over penetrating cooler cooled bare gel. Well not sure what test he was at or what range he was at or even what agency he was talking about. Maybe it was just coincidence that I attended a similar testing at the Orange County Sheriff's Office range here in central Florida. Present were representative of a few ammunition manufacturers to include Hornady, Federal, Winchester and Speer. Now this test was conducted by a third party vendor. This third party vendor provided the gel, chronograph and equipment to do the testing and each respective company provided the ammunition for testing. The guns tested where the agency issued LMT 16" patrol rifle and agency issued 10.5" Adams Arms which were being run by the SWAT team at the time. The other mysterious locally built gun was my 7.5" AR.

    I would be glad to send anyone the results from this testing to see for yourself and check the data. The 7.5" performed with every round they tested with the exception of the 75gr Hornady black SBR and the Gold Dot 75gr. Note when I say exception is that those two rounds penetrated past the 18" maximum standard per the FBI. The Gold Dot penetrated 18.25" and the Hornady penetrated 21.75". All the other rounds penetrated 13.75" to 18" which is ideal according to FBI standards. The rounds also expanded and retained weight within minute differences of the 16" and 10.5" rifles. When it come to ballistics and what ammo does in gel you have to do your homework and see it for yourself sometimes to understand it. Yawing will happen when a round enters the gel. The bullet does not travel in a linear fashion through the gel. As it encounters more and more resistance it begins to travel side ways or yaw.

    These 7.5" ARs have been tested for accuracy as well. Not only have I tested them for accuracy but a few Law Enforcement agencies and two consultants which work very closely with me who have experience and qualifications to go with their testing results.

    My 7.5" AR is capable of getting 1.25" groups at 100 yards using ammunition such as Gold Dot and Federal Fusion MSR. We have continued to conduct gel testing and accuracy to get more content on our YouTube channel and will post that information as soon as we get it finalized.

    I hope this is an informative post and I apologize for the lengthly post. If you have any question please feel free to contact me on the platforms I mentioned above.

    Hope everyone stays safe and God Bless.

    Veritas Tactical



    DATA FROM TESTING BELOW


    Attachment 51538

  3. #713
    Site Supporter ccmdfd's Avatar
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    Forgive me for a little bit of a tangent here.

    For all of these talk of a 7.5 or smaller AR, with a suppressor; are there good suppressors that will work with a barrel that short?

    I know I have suppressors from both AAC and Surefire and they have a minimum barrel length of I believe 10 in.

    Thanks

  4. #714
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccmdfd View Post
    Forgive me for a little bit of a tangent here.

    For all of these talk of a 7.5 or smaller AR, with a suppressor; are there good suppressors that will work with a barrel that short?

    I know I have suppressors from both AAC and Surefire and they have a minimum barrel length of I believe 10 in.

    Thanks
    AFAIK the suppressors still work, they're just not warrantied as the baffles take excessive wear below 10".
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  5. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by StraitR View Post
    Thanks. Haha, well I wasn't far off in my search I guess. That looks like a great solution as well.

    Yeah, UT stuff is incredibly hard to catch in stock. I own nothing from them for just that reason.
    The Modswitch I ordered will go an an AR SBR. Because of its bend, I don't think it will work on the APC. Perhaps upside down?

    My desire for the APC was a pic rail hot button on the left (from photos it appears the M-lok version needs 2 M-lok spots and the APC's only have one on each side), and then run the cable underneath (over is not workable because the charging handle is in the way), to a scout or similar light mounted on one of these: https://hbindustries.net/store/shop/...-apc-and-ghm9/

    Yep. Unity Tactical is the worst company I've seen when it comes to vaporware. I understand they are a small operations, but they really need to stop advertising or showing off products until they have enough of them to sell and ship to vendors. It's especially maddening because they come up with some magnificent ideas for gear. They just suck at getting their stuff to market.

  6. #716
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    @El Cid,

    What about just putting a TLR on the bottom rail? It would be the most "bag friendly" solution instead of having a light hanging off the side.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #717
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    Update. Based on this thread I removed CMore from my MPX and replaced with a Leupold DPP on a Leupold riser. Added an older Inforce WML relocated from a carbine. Will put CMore on a gamer AR9.

  8. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Xhado View Post
    My go-to small gun is my KAC SR15 MOD 2 CQB (11.5") w/ KAC QDC.

    If I need to go smaller I have a pistol lower with LAW Tactical folder as well as a KAC QDC CQB suppressor. It works really well for me and can be bag carried with the folder.

    This is a no go for my wife however, at 100lbs and constantly pregnant, the 7lbs 13oz of the KAC/Suppressor/T2/Modlite is just too heavy.

    Thus began my search for a light PDW which turned up with a bunch of dead ends once I found out most of the major PCCs weighed only about a pound less once they were fully configured to my liking & as much as I like them I don't want to spend $2K-3K for an outfitted B&T

    I settled for the MCK Gen 2 over a G45.

    4lbs 4oz including Rugged Obsidian, and a Holosun red dot.

    The reliability/simplicity/compatibility of Glocks and the price of ~$200 for kit made it a no brainer.

    Thanks for posting this. I’ve been wondering about the chassis systems compared to something dedicated like the TP9. They always seemed interesting but possibly gimmicky. I think it was JodyH some time back who reported positive experience with it. Have you put many rounds through it? Are there any drawbacks you have noticed? I’d appreciate any input.

  9. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    @El Cid,

    What about just putting a TLR on the bottom rail? It would be the most "bag friendly" solution instead of having a light hanging off the side.
    That is certainly an option. I generally dislike bottom mounted lights on long guns due to bbl shadow (in this case suppressor shadow), and the light being in the way if I want to jam the gun against a wall or vehicle. I also have long arms and there isn't much real estate on the APC. I tried @GJM's technique with my old TLR-7 and it works pretty well. I just found that I would accidentally turn on the light when I didn't want it, and have trouble getting it to activate when I did. I'm sure I could overcome that with training and putting in the necessary reps.

    But my ideal solution would be a 12 o'clock pistol style light. The TLR's and X300's are tall enough they block a significant part of my FOV. The SF XC1B would be great if it actually had enough throw and power to light up more than a phone booth. I'm hopeful the XR2 is short enough for a 12 o'clock position.

    Ultimately the side mounted Scout isn't a show stopper in the bag use because I have the side folding brace. If I was willing to spend $600 on the telescoping brace then the light would be out there all alone. lol! Everything is a compromise of some kind when we use weapons this small. It's all about trying to find the balance between competing interests.

  10. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
    @RevolverRob, that’s a cool find. They have a reticle setup just for 9mm! That’s crazy I never would have though that they’d have something like that setup for 9mm. Thank you.
    It's interesting they did that. Do we know what length bbl they used though? And it says it's for 115gr and 124gr 9mm. I almost exclusively use 147gr these days and at 25 yards with a handgun that can be a 5 or 6 inch vertical POI change.

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