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Thread: The Case for a 20" Shotgun, No Side Saddle, Non-Flite Control Buck

  1. #151
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    My first shotgun was an Ithaca 37 DS Police Special. (DS = Deer Slug, for the sights.) NYPD and LAPD using the 37 was a significant reason, as I was contemplating LEO-ing as a career. Houston PD’s shotgun rules had been wide-open, and the 37 would have been OK, too, at the time, but then, in mid-1983, just before I was hired, HPD specified which duty shotguns were to be allowed, and established features that all shotguns would need to have, for future approval. One of those specific features was two action bars, which eliminated the 37.

    My duty shotgun progression, 1984 to 2018, was S&W 3000, HK/Benelli M1 Super 90, Remington 870 Wingmaster, Remington 870 Marine Magnum, Remington 870P, and Benelli M2. There was some overlap, of course.

    The S&W 3000 was a Howa-made semi-clone of the 870, with an anti-jam follower that preceded Remington’s anti-jam follower. (The parts would not interchange.)
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  2. #152
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Notably, the Ithaca 37 had a two-prong-like follower design that allowed one to clear a double-feed more expediently than most other pump guns.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  3. #153
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    My first shotgun was an Ithaca 37 DS Police Special. (DS = Deer Slug, for the sights.)
    Oops! To late to edit, I noticed that I typed “Slug” where I should have typed “Slayer.”

    DS = Deer Slayer.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    Oops! To late to edit, I noticed that I typed “Slug” where I should have typed “Slayer.”

    DS = Deer Slayer.
    Well which one did you like best and why?

  5. #155
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Well which one did you like best and why?
    All were bestest.

    Well, OK. The Ithaca was certainly smooth to operate, and occupies a special place in my heart. I wish I could have afforded to keep it, but young patrol officers, in the Eighties, were not well-paid.

    The S&W 3000 worked perfectly, but was, well, utility-grade. I wish I had been able to afford to keep it. This was the one I used when we did a multi-week stakeout, trying to nail two armed robbers, who had murdered one business owner, and were targeting two specific types of businesses.

    The HK/Benelli was a sexy thing, except that the stock design was brutal, and the mechanism called for shooting high-brass loads, for reliability. It always fed and extracted reliably, but one time the safety button froze in the “On” position, and I snapped two rear sight screws, while sighting-in for slugs. I had sold my S&W 3000, so bought the 870 Marine Magnum, and sold the Benelli.

    The Wingmaster was acquired in its police version, with a top-folding stock. It was quite smooth in operation. I had to shoot it CAREFULLY with that old-school, all-steel stock. I tried it pistol-grip-only, with an aftermarket grip that, IIRC, is the pattern now sold as Tacstar, but may have been sold under a different brand, at that time. I practiced shooting this set-up in the extended position, like the Marshals used their Witness Protection shotguns, and decided to keep this shotgun in the pistol-grip-only configuration, as I had the Benelli for “normal” shotgunning. Then, a burglar took it. So, the Marine Magnum actually replaced the Benelli, and the stolen Wingmaster.

    The Marine Magnum was the smoothest-operating 870 I had ever handled. When I started carrying a patrol rifle, I let myself be talked into selling the Marine Magnum. I soon realized my error, and bought the 870P, which I still have.

    My 870P has served well. Utility-grade. For much of its life, I had my Vang-Comped barrel on it, but Hurricane Harvey soaked that barrel, as the gun was stasged muzzle-down, at home, while I was stuck at work for a week. The resulting rust in the ports, prompted concern for the structural integrity of the barrel, so the 870P now wears its original barrel. (I had my Benelli M2 with me, on duty.)

    As my eyes aged, I grew to like the rifle sights I had seen on some M1 and M2 Benellis. I started hearing and reading good things about the Comfort-Tech stocks. I went through an annoying short-stroke crisis of confidence, with the 870P, and so finally made the move back to Benelli, probably in 2016. Sweet! I wished I had bought an M2 as soon as Comfort-Tech stocks entered the picture. I bought a second M2, with the ghost ring sight set-up, after I retired.

    I reckon that it is evident that my favorite is the Benelli M2, but I have a soft spot for the pump guns, too. Notably, I bought these shotguns, with my own money. We were not issued long guns, except for the less-lethal “bean-bag” weapons, which were signed-out on a rotating basis.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  6. #156
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    Nice user breakdown RexG...Thanks

    As I posted in another thread, the only Police type shotgun I ever qual'd on was the 20" bbl Rem 870 in the Military.

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Unfortunately Pat didn't have much influence on me in a personal manner because I never capitalized on the opportunity to train with him. It was one of those things on my list, but life happened and now the chance is gone. I've read a lot of what he wrote over the years, though, and it's nice to be able to draw a little attention to a subject that people don't readily associate with Pat: The defensive shotgun.

    Some details on the gun:

    The barrel is 18.5" long when removed from the gun. Sitting in the gun it's 17" from the receiver...as short as it can get without NFA registration. As shown in the LF link, Pat used an even shorter gun in uniform working Robbery. I don't believe (Ithaca experts feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that this is a standard factory configuration. I believe the barrel was cut down and the front rifle sight was re-soldered to the barrel.

    EDIT - after doing some poking around it seems that Ithaca did make an 18.5" barreled 37 Police model. Most I've seen have been longer 20" barreled guns, but the 18" version could be had from the factory.

    The rifle sights on the gun point to heavy use of slugs and the realities of buckshot spread at close range...which is minimal. While a bead can be used if one has a good mount, a good mount is a luxury that is not always available in the real world. Rifle style sights allow a quick, useful sight reference even when one has a sub-optimal mount. For defensive use of a shotgun rifle sights really are much better than beads for most humans.

    The stock's LOP is just a hair shy of 13". Which likely means it was cut down a bit, too. (Again, Ithaca experts can correct me if I'm wrong)

    The butt pad is also ground down on top to prevent the gun from snagging during a mount from a high-ready/port arms style carry.

    The addition of the strap to the forend is likely a result of seeing how often people's forward hand separates from the gun under recoil with these corn-cob style forends.

    While Pat wasn't famous for his shotgun knowledge, the setup on this gun has a lot of subtle touches that show he knew the defensive gauge very, very well.

    @TCinVA I remember Pat posting a pic of himself holding a shotgun while he was in his Robbery assignment. I found it in this thread. It's a long thread, but if you scroll through you will see the one where he was in a tiger stripe jacket.

    https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/in-the-70-s?page=2

    While I was looking for that thread I found a thread where he mentions the gun you own with a few pictures.

    https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/esu-ithaca-37?page=1

    The threads are really interesting to read.
    Last edited by DamonL; 04-12-2020 at 08:46 AM.

  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Luthier View Post
    Since we're posting...

    The pump shotgun that lives here; 1940 Ithaca 37, 1941 20 1/8" barrel*.
    I would love to get something more modern & robust, along with a class from TCinVA, HiTs, Chuck Haggard, or Tom Givens. However, life is not always planned...

    Attachment 51369


    I was going through it today because the mag spring seemed to lose power to push the last shell (using all plastic Pachmayr snap-caps) and would mis-feed. This is understandably concerning if one needs a shotgun very badly.
    Thankfully, cleaning and lubricating the feed system seems to have cured the issue for now. Anyone have experience with the plastic Choate followers in this application?

    I expect that a) a new magazine spring, and b)a five round shot card will make their way here this week, along with more #1 buckshot. This shotgun has patterned well with Flite-Control 00 and S & B 8 pellet 00 in the past. Being 6.25 lbs, recoil is brisk.

    Reading the MN statutes, I am gutted to find out that SBRs are fully kosher, but a SBS that is not a curio & relic is worth a felony. Must be due to that heavy Mafia presence we had in the early 30s...
    I went back to look at your post to look at your Ithaca 37 and saw your question about followers. I had an 870 with the factory plastic follower. I noticed that the plastic had a roughened surface from going back and forth in the tube. I replaced it with a metal follower because I thought it might cause excessive drag at some point. I think the choate follower you are talking about has a tail on it that fits into the spring. Sometimes that can reduce capacity. The other thing is powder or powder residue can get in the tube and cause drag too. I don't know if you found that to be true when you cleaned it. Finally, as you noted, you may just need a new mag spring.

  9. #159
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonL View Post
    @TCinVA I remember Pat posting a pic of himself holding a shotgun while he was in his Robbery assignment. I found it in this thread. It's a long thread, but if you scroll through you will see the one where he was in a tiger stripe jacket.

    https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/in-the-70-s?page=2

    While I was looking for that thread I found a thread where he mentions the gun you own with a few pictures.

    https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/esu-ithaca-37?page=1

    The threads are really interesting to read.
    That's cool! Thanks for looking that up!
    3/15/2016

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Interestingly enough, I've been thinking of going the opposite direction and opting for a Remington Tac-13 with a folding brace and RMR installed. I figure a smaller package that is easier to move inside with, but still delivers plenty of power out of the end may be the way to go.

    An 18" barreled 12-gauge with buckshot remains my "shelter-in-place" weapon of choice, but a light equipped handgun remains my movement weapon of choice. Hence thinking about a light equipped Tac-13 to bridge that gap.

    PS: There is something to longer barrel + longer mag = more comfort. My wife's gun of choice is a 21" 870 Youth in 20-gauge. With a Nordic +4 extension it, it holds 10 rounds of Spartan #1 9-pellet buckshot. 3-dot sights on the vent rib + her running it like a sewing machine. I wouldn't fuck with her if she has that boomstick in her hands, she WILL fuck someone up with it. Whenever I pick it up, I find the balance is great and it feels good to me, the extra couple of rounds of bone and flesh removing buckshot makes me feel more better too.
    Late to this party, as usual, but whatever. I do not currently have a shottie for home use, a full size 870 Wingmaster with full furniture is a bit much.

    However, my preference is an 870 youth in 20 ga. Even with the 21" barrel the one my kids' mom has, the LOP and overall length is about perfect to maneuver in smaller spaces, IMO. Loaded with #3 buck, it's more than effective enough for anything we could encounter in the house. My son will be big enough for one soon, so I'll have to get him one, and it'll likely double as a HD gun. I couldn't tell you the last time I ever fired a shotgun...

    That said, any of the testing I've seen on 12 ga leads me to believe for HD, low recoil 8 pellet OO buck, flite control or not, is more than sufficient, with #1 buck coming in right there, as well. I'd honestly be more apt to go for the smaller size due to how my house is put together.

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