Sending firearms to another state / myself via UPS / FedEx?

[CleverNickname]

A simple question changes the answer. Are you GIVING/SELLING them the guns or LENDING them the guns? Would they like to use those guns for a lawful sporting purpose? Lending for a lawful sporting purpose does not require an FFL across state lines. Selling does.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

Not a lawyer, all that.

"Temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" means the gun's owner from state A can hand a gun to someone from state B when both of them are out hunting or target shooting or something, without there being an illegal transfer. It does not mean that someone from state A can ship a gun to someone from state B. A good simple test is "can he hand the gun back to me?" If yes, it's probably not an illegal transfer. If no, then it almost certainly is.

Also I believe being a family member is another set of rules?

Some states do not allow private transfers between residents of that state, but make exceptions for transfers between family members (who are residents of that state). This has nothing to do with inter-state transfers. Federal law does not make any exceptions to transfer requirements due to familial relations.

[Malamute]

I have sent guns from myself to myself in care of another person when travelling by ground to Alaska. The details may have changed, but hadnt when I looked a couple years ago, the one aspect of it that you arent considering, to do the shipping as from yourself to yourself, the receiving person cannot legally open the package, only you can. To do otherwise would be a violation of federal law I believe.

Why not send to an FFL? Whats the "obviously" not wanting to part?

[Hambo]

Would prefer to not play a stupid game and win a stupid prize, so if I’m about to do that, please let me know.

IMO the safest way to avoid that prize would be to find an FFL local to your dad that will accept from an individual. Run the FFL number on ATF EZ check, then ship.

I've shipped a lot of guns, almost all through UPS. Their people rarely understand company policy on firearms, but all of the guns got where they were going.

[BehindBlueI's]

"Temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" means the gun's owner from state A can hand a gun to someone from state B when both of them are out hunting or target shooting or something, without there being an illegal transfer. It does not mean that someone from state A can ship a gun to someone from state B. A good simple test is "can he hand the gun back to me?" If yes, it's probably not an illegal transfer. If no, then it almost certainly is.

I'm not seeing any such requirement in the US code or the ATF's website that it must be a physical hand off, the lender must be physically present, or there's a maximum amount of time the lending can encompass. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but could you point me to it?

[CleverNickname]

I'm not seeing any such requirement in the US code or the ATF's website that it must be a physical hand off, the lender must be physically present, or there's a maximum amount of time the lending can encompass. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but could you point me to it?

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

Section (a)(5) and section (e) are separate sections, so the exemption for "loan or rental of a firearm for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" in (a)(5) doesn't apply to (e). So, the person loaning or renting the gun would have to find a way around (e) to to not involve "a common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce." This pretty much restricts the exemption to in-person transfers.

The other question is, what is "temporary"? Well, the problem is that the ATF hasn't defined "temporary" as far as I can tell. It's not defined in 27 CFR 478.11, where I would expect such a definition to be. But "temporary" implies a relatively limited period of time with a known end (e.g. when the range rental time is up, when the hunting trip is over, etc.), not "whenever the present coronavirus madness ends". There's also another separate problem, in that the OP seems to want to send guns to his family members for self-defense, not "sporting purposes", so it even under your broader reading, the exception wouldn't appear to apply.

[5pins]

Go to https://www.shipmygun.com and save a few bucks in shipping. It will probably be less than $100 to send both guns to an FFL. Your brother can pay the transfer fee, which should be around $20-$30.

Or play games with the ATF and the possibility of spending thousands in legal fees and a felony conviction.

[BehindBlueI's]

Section (a)(5) and section (e) are separate sections, so the exemption for "loan or rental of a firearm for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" in (a)(5) doesn't apply to (e). So, the person loaning or renting the gun would have to find a way around (e) to to not involve "a common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce." This pretty much restricts the exemption to in-person transfers.

The other question is, what is "temporary"? Well, the problem is that the ATF hasn't defined "temporary" as far as I can tell. It's not defined in 27 CFR 478.11, where I would expect such a definition to be. But "temporary" implies a relatively limited period of time with a known end (e.g. when the range rental time is up, when the hunting trip is over, etc.), not "whenever the present coronavirus madness ends". There's also another separate problem, in that the OP seems to want to send guns to his family members for self-defense, not "sporting purposes", so it even under your broader reading, the exception wouldn't appear to apply.

You may very well be right, then. I don't know if a loan counts as "interstate commerce" but let's assume it does. Could he ship it to himself, they don't open it unless rioting breaks out, then when he actually gets there he could give them to them in person? That bypasses the FFL requirement, ordinarily not a big deal but with the huge lines at FFLs maybe not ideal right now, they'd have the guns if actually needed and a necessity defense if required. I get that an FFL is the easiest least questionable way, but I also get why the OP may not want his family going to an FFL right now.

[5pins]

Even if he wanted to do a FTF transfer when he got there he would need to be a Texas resident to bypass using an FFL.

[Sanch]

despite having hard copies of everything from ATF and the companies policies with me, no one at FedEx or UPS would allow me to ship guns without an FFL holder on one end or the other. I gave up and just checked them as baggage on the airline I was flying.

How did Fedex/UPS know what you were shipping? I thought it was forbidden and bad practice to put a sticker that says GUN on the box and if you make a UPS or fedex account online and print your own postage, they don't ask what's in it. When I looked, it was the rule that you could do it but you were supposed to drop it off at a UPS warehouse not a UPS Store/Kinkos but it was already in a box with my own label preprinted on it.

I did it once on vacation. And for the return trip, I just had preprinted another UPS label with the same dimensions/weight and I dropped it off at a UPS Store and no questions asked same as using an Amazon return.

[okie john]

Or play games with the ATF and the possibility of spending thousands in legal fees and a felony conviction.

This.

If nothing happens while you’re there, then no harm, no foul. But if you come into contact with law enforcement, then the nature of the transfer could become a massively complicating factor.


Okie John