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Thread: Shooting at “your rhythm”

  1. #11
    Would it be fair to say that "shooting at your rhythm" is somewhat akin to "only drive the speed that your headlights illuminate?" (Gosh that's horrible english for the latter, but it's my best recollection on the euphemism.)
    Jules
    Runcible Works

  2. #12
    Lately I've noticed that I seem to be able to run my 1.0 M&P 9c (with 17 round mag extender) faster than my G19.4 on timed drills while maintaining an accuracy standard of a 5" circle out to 10 yards. I hadn't previously shot this gun very much with an extended grip. This was especially surprising to me because the sights on the Glock are so much more visible for me (green T-Caps).

    The most obvious differences, beside the sights, are the grip shape/circumference and the trigger characteristics. The M&P is pure rolling mush all the way through, while the Glock hits a hard, defined wall. I don't know if these are the actual reasons for the difference, but I seem to have more reliable hit rate with the M&P on that particular target at speed. It just seems easier, almost like the timer slows down.

    I guess you could say that my rhythm seems to be faster with the M&P, but I think I really need to test this across a much wider variety of target sizes, distances, and time standards in order to tell the full story. Perhaps my rhythm is only faster with the M&P in certain circumstances? It will be interesting to test this out, but unfortunately I don't have as many thousands of rounds of 9mm training ammo as I would like, and I am going to be carrying the Glock, so I think I'll be shooting it exclusively for the time being. Stupid global pandemic.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by frozentundra View Post
    Lately I've noticed that I seem to be able to run my 1.0 M&P 9c (with 17 round mag extender) faster than my G19.4 on timed drills while maintaining an accuracy standard of a 5" circle out to 10 yards. I hadn't previously shot this gun very much with an extended grip. This was especially surprising to me because the sights on the Glock are so much more visible for me (green T-Caps).

    The most obvious differences, beside the sights, are the grip shape/circumference and the trigger characteristics. The M&P is pure rolling mush all the way through, while the Glock hits a hard, defined wall. I don't know if these are the actual reasons for the difference, but I seem to have more reliable hit rate with the M&P on that particular target at speed. It just seems easier, almost like the timer slows down.

    I guess you could say that my rhythm seems to be faster with the M&P, but I think I really need to test this across a much wider variety of target sizes, distances, and time standards in order to tell the full story. Perhaps my rhythm is only faster with the M&P in certain circumstances? It will be interesting to test this out, but unfortunately I don't have as many thousands of rounds of 9mm training ammo as I would like, and I am going to be carrying the Glock, so I think I'll be shooting it exclusively for the time being. Stupid global pandemic.
    Each shooter is going to have an individual rhythm, and that may even vary by pistol and specific load. What I think is important is that you figure out the rhythm for the gun that you are shooting to get the best results out of it for whatever your skill level is. As an example, my natural rhythm is different when I shoot a PCC than shooting the P30 LEM with carry ammo.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by frozentundra View Post
    Lately I've noticed that I seem to be able to run my 1.0 M&P 9c (with 17 round mag extender) faster than my G19.4 on timed drills while maintaining an accuracy standard of a 5" circle out to 10 yards.

    I guess you could say that my rhythm seems to be faster with the M&P

    I am going to be carrying the Glock
    Are you forced to carry a Glock?

  5. #15
    I’m barely qualified to comment

    But will opine that once you can get your doubles to touch at whatever distance and split time you’re consistent with - it’s time to work on “leaving early” to the next target


    I can get .14’s to touch at 7M with this gun but as you can see I’m painfully slow moving to the next target.

    The whole purpose of flat shooting guns it’s so you can move to the next target and still get hits.



  6. #16
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    To restate my original point, this thread isn’t about improving how you grip the pistol or pull the trigger. We have had many threads about those topics, since the beginning of this forum. This is about harvesting the most points per second, with whatever skill level you currently have. My belief, at least for me, is there is a shooting rhythm that yields the best result for me, and going faster or slower yields a worse result. That is at odds with shooting at a specific qual pace or standard, because that pace may be just right, too fast or too slow for you. If it is the right pace for you, it works, but if it is too fast or slow, it does not work.
    I bet a lot of us observe this shooting various DoW with set Pars. Many of us undershoot the par time; probably because of this rhythm albeit unconsciously.

    I see it a LOT on tasks that have say a 4.5 second par - R2 @ 25 yards from LAPD SWAT qual but slowing it down to shoot at 4.45 rarely improves the hits vs what has settled in as "natural" closer to 3 seconds.
    As a man sows, so shall he reap.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Are you forced to carry a Glock?
    I am not. However, my 1.0 M&P 9c has a thumb safety, stock sights, and I only have one 17 round magazine. It was my first carry gun many years ago when a thumb safety made me feel more comfortable, and I was much less proficient than I am today.

    Since switching to the G19 some years (and training classes) back, I am no longer completely habituated to using the thumb safety. It has the opposite affect for me now. While I know that I could remove it, the hassle of ordering the frame plugs, better sights, and additional magazines just doesn't seem worth the trouble with everything going on right now. I am well invested into Glock gear.

    If/when things normalize, and if S&W ever gets their shit together, I'll probably buy a 2.0 compact that is RDS capable and invest more into the M&P platform. Just not at this time.



    As to GJM's point, I probably need to focus on optimizing for my rhythm with the Glock for now.

  8. #18
    Member Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runcible View Post
    Would it be fair to say that "shooting at your rhythm" is somewhat akin to "only drive the speed that your headlights illuminate?" (Gosh that's horrible english for the latter, but it's my best recollection on the euphemism.)
    I've always heard it as, "Don't drive beyond your headlights."
    We may lose or we may win, but we will never be hear again.......

  9. #19
    Member Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    One goal of practical shooting is to get the most amount of points per second, available with your current level of skill. Lately I have been thinking about the rhythm that I shoot and how that relates to my performance.

    Think about the firing cycle of a handgun. The shot fires, the muzzle and sights lift, the slide returns, and it can be fired again. Each shooter has their own rhythm when they shoot a particular pistol. By rhythm, I mean how the gun behaves between shots. Factors that influence a shooter’s individual rhythm, are the particular pistol, the caliber and particular load, their stance and grip, their trigger technique and control, and the overall consistency of their technique. The rhythm of the gun, when shot by Robert Vogel, for example, is a lot different than the same pistol and load shot by an inexperienced shooter.

    I have come to believe that shooting at my natural rhythm, with a particular gun, gives me the best combination of points per second. When I rush my natural rhythm, my points usually go down, and sometimes my time even goes up. When I slow my natural rhythm, time goes up, and unless I slow to precision speed, my accuracy can degrade, as I am shooting off rhythm of the natural movement of the sights. So what do I mean by shooting at my “natural rhythm?” I mean that during recoil, I reset the trigger, and fire the shot as the sights or dot cross back into your desired scoring zone. Upsetting the natural rhythm, by either forcing it quicker, or delaying it, results in a worse result for me.

    To improve my natural rhythm, I often work on grip and stance to minimize movement of the sights, and shoot the Stoeger doubles drill to test those changes.
    I have found this to be true. When I changed from a majority of .45acp shooting to 9mm, I had to establish a new rhythm. At first, the lesser amount of recoil caused me to outrun the gun in a pretty big way. When I installed Langdon trigger bars on my 92s I experienced the same effect, but even worse than switching calibers. The drastically shorter reset the trigger bar provides really messed with my rhythm. All skills have a plateau and shooting is no different. It's important to find your personal plateau where everything merges.
    We may lose or we may win, but we will never be hear again.......

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    I've always heard it as, "Don't drive beyond your headlights."
    To apply that analogy here, I would say to drive at the limit of your headlights, not beyond what you can see or less that what you can see. The challenge is, based on different skills and equipment, each shooter is effectively equipped with an individual set of headlights that must be calibrated through experience, and these headlights can vary by the day.

    Related to fixed time drills, Gabe and I have discussed par times over the years, and concluded they often reflect the ability of the person establishing the par time. If the par time is easy for you, it essentially becomes a no time drill. If the par is impossible, it encourages haste which often results in poor performance. I get a par time for evaluating ability against a standard, but don’t like a par for improving ability.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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