The IWB Draw Stroke in 2020

[Gun Mutt]

I've carried a concealed pistol for the last 30 years, the first 18yrs, mostly IWB, the last 12yrs, AIWB. A recent medical issue/injury/mystery has taken appendix carry completely off the table, so I've been to revisiting IWB with a vengeance. I've learned that my hand and body now reject all of my old, 3:30-4:00, heavily canted G19 & 1911 holsters and have settled on a G26 just shy of 3:00 with the slightest hint of cant, finding the combo fairly comfortable and concealable.

When I went to Thunder Ranch and YFA in the late 90's and early 2000's, Clint and Louie both taught the classic 4 count drawstroke, their version moving the support hand to the belt buckle or stomach on the first count; both were fine with the high pectoral hand placement I'd learned and practiced from Kelly McCann (aka "Jim Grover" if you're old enough to remember) articles prior to attending formal training.

Then came the internet, AIWB, FOF and dynamic movement for everyone. With so much access to top instructors, classes, training groups, forums and videos, I can truthfully say I've trained both smarter and harder in the last 15yrs than I did in the preceding 15yrs of carry.

However, almost all of that training was done AIWB and now I'm looking for the same depth of knowledge and detailed instruction/demonstration with IWB, mostly as it relates to the role of the support hand. I want to continue to train my drawstroke intelligently and with purpose, but it seems everything I find on the subject these days is either seriously dated or poorly executed by obvious amateurs.

About the only modern clip I've been able to find is of Dom Rosso talking about Dynamis Alliance classes. It's hardly an instructional video and I had to watch it a few times to get anything more from it than Dom has an abundance of abs and I currently have none.

So, anyone have any insight, articles or videos to share on the subject?

[UNM1136]

If AIWB is off the table, remembering that AIWB can be up to 12 o'clock, what about cross draw?

IWB at the traditional 3:00 would be my follow up choice.

pat

[Redhat]

Oooh is he doing the "turtle" we discussed recently?

But seriously, have any of the mechanics really changed since you learned it previously?

I would bet Mas Ayoob could fill the bill since it's apparently becoming an archaic technique. Heck Dagga Boy and Wayne Dobbs could probably help you out...

[Gun Mutt]

Oooh is he doing the "turtle" we discussed recently?
But seriously, have any of the mechanics really changed since you learned it previously?
I would bet Mas Ayoob could fill the bill since it's apparently becoming an archaic technique. Heck Dagga Boy and Wayne Dobbs could probably help you out...

Here's what made me to post the question: two nights ago I was doing dry work in the garage with ol' Beat 'em up Bob and once I'd moved the full length of the floor, I drew in the classic 4 count, but with my apishly long arms, my left/support hand inadvertently met my drawing hand damn near under my right armpit and my left index and middle fingers hit the trigger guard, the index finger almost making contact with the trigger.

I obviously need to do something more consistent with my support hand, seemed prudent to see what the current understanding of best practices are these days.

Love to hear anything @Mas, @Dagga Boy or @Wayne Dobbs have to say on the subject.

[Mas]

Here's what made me to post the question: two nights ago I was doing dry work in the garage with ol' Beat 'em up Bob and once I'd moved the full length of the floor, I drew in the classic 4 count, but with my apishly long arms, my left/support hand inadvertently met my drawing hand damn near under my right armpit and my left index and middle fingers hit the trigger guard, the index finger almost making contact with the trigger.

I obviously need to do something more consistent with my support hand, seemed prudent to see what the current understanding of best practices are these days.

Love to hear anything @Mas, @Dagga Boy or @Wayne Dobbs have to say on the subject.

The first thing that leaps out at me here is that if one of your support hand fingers entered the trigger guard, they might have been a bit apart. You want them together, like a spear hand, as soon as they're done clearing the cover garment.

I assume you're working from under a closed-front garment, and using the support hand in a Hackathorn Rip to get the garment up enough to clear a draw path for dominant hand and gun. That should put the support hand at the pectoral level, and it should be positioned where you can see it in lower peripheral vision as the drawing hand takes the pistol into a press-out. The visual input should keep the support hand from premature contact with the firing hand or the trigger area of the pistol.

If you're working from under an open front concealment garment, I'd suggest the support hand being no lower than the diaphragm, and up in field of vision, ready to block physical attack. You don't need it to clear open front concealment. As the firing hand presses the gun out, the support hand comes in from the side and behind the muzzle.

I hope I'm understanding your question and that the above proves helpful.

[Cory]

When I think of the draw stroke, I think of Paul Gomez. I never had the pleasure of meeting or training with Paul. In fact he had passed away before I stumbled onto his videos. They were among some of my first exposures to thought out training - and I think he presents a really aolid foundation that can be adapted from. However, without knowing the baseline and understanding it it makes furthering your draw hard.





-Cory

[Redhat]

Here's what made me to post the question: two nights ago I was doing dry work in the garage with ol' Beat 'em up Bob and once I'd moved the full length of the floor, I drew in the classic 4 count, but with my apishly long arms, my left/support hand inadvertently met my drawing hand damn near under my right armpit and my left index and middle fingers hit the trigger guard, the index finger almost making contact with the trigger.

I obviously need to do something more consistent with my support hand, seemed prudent to see what the current understanding of best practices are these days.

Love to hear anything @Mas, @Dagga Boy or @Wayne Dobbs have to say on the subject.

We can call that a training issue but might it also be another good reason to consider a TDA handgun?

[Cory]

Some more from Paul Gomez on garment clear. Because I carry AIWB, this video doesn't apply much for me. These techniques seem like they've mostly been traded for support hand garment clear - but it's important to understand the disadvantages of that.



Mike Seeklander's draw may be better for you. This works for strong carry or AIWB single hand. I find a garment grip and circle motion is a great technique to clear and establish grip. However, if I'm trying to do a one handed garment sweep I don't go for the hemline with 4 fingers. I wear different cuts and types of shirts and the hemline isn't consistent for me. I grab a handful of material over the actual firearm and then proceed to make my big C.



-Cory

[Clusterfrack]

Not much to add here. I like Gomez and Seeklanders approaches also.

One thing to consider is what happens when your draw isn't perfect. Dryfiring will help you practice both perfect and imperfect draws. Don't flog yourself when your shirt gets fouled. It helps you be comfortable with recovering from problems. And, of course learning out how to prevent them. I've found that in most cases, a less-than-perfect draw will add maybe 0.2-0.4s.

The issue you described with your support hand will get fixed by practice. Sounds like you may need to slow down a bit until your support hand grip becomes consistent.

[runcible]

In specific reply to the content linked video:

I have some concerns about training events wherein you spar\clinch\defend against another human being and then transition to engaging targets with the live weapon that you've had on your person the whole time. There's ways to mitigate concerns when shifting modalities, and I don't see them depicted here brief as the video is. I've participated in such events in the past, and from this derive my opinion. The safety concerns put aside, not being able to work it with sims\in-FOF loses potential training-value\learning-experiences, in that the person providing the active resistance ceases all such pressure the moment the transition to live fire begins and there is no penalty for inappropriate extension of the weapon given the proximity of the threat. (Gosh, and you can see the hips bowing forward and the back leaning backwards beginning at 2:04.)

I have really embraced collecting off of the hand flattened upon the high\center-chest, as per @SouthNarc 's curriculum. You can observe in real time error-margins shrinking at 1:17.

I strongly prefer the back of the hand indexing to the buttock or near-hip as per @RWS , and we can see a potential muzzle\foot conflict at 1:10.

It's a well done promotional video that I don't mean to take out of context, but yeesh.