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Thread: Competition Bad Habits? Do any exist? Competing Anonymously possible?

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    Iím learning some things about competition here.
    Not quite


    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    I didnít realize you canít draw from appendix???
    You're partially correct. The rules of the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) do not allow appendix holsters. The rules of the United States Practical Shooting Association (USPSA) allow the holster to be placed in the appendix position if you choose to compete in the Open, Limited, or Revolver divisions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    And one or more of them make you look down at your feet before you start?
    Absolutely not. You must have certainly misinterpreted whatever you read that led you to believe so.

    You should go and observe some matches first, and while you're there ask the participants questions, before you think you understand all of this.

    During the USPSA match I competed in two weekends ago I noticed a guy hanging at the back of my squad observing. I just went over during my downtime, introduced myself, and told him he was more than welcome to approach, observe, and ask. I answered as many of his questions as I could and gave him some basic advice on how to get started. I do believe I'll see him again, next time with a pistol on his belt.

    Find them here: www.practiscore.com, and here: https://uspsa.org/find-a-club
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 03-17-2020 at 04:17 PM.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    Iím learning some things about competition here. I didnít realize you canít draw from appendix??? And one or more of them make you look down at your feet before you start?

    I have almost no competition experience as I said in my original post but both of those are pretty off putting to me. So then I either have to practice with my holster in a position I never carry it in order to ďwinĒ which is a training scar if I wind up training that ďwrongĒposition enough that I instinctively go there in real life. Or, I never train the draw from the competition holster spot and Iím doomed to lose because everyone else there will have spent time practicing from the OWB 5 o clock or whatever is allowed.

    If I go in knowing Iím doomed to lose, then thereís no stress because I know I canít win so whatís the point is being stressed when I lose, and that makes the whole things a lot less useful for stress inoculation.

    My assumption here could be way wrong though, maybe it wonít add much time to my draw if I draw from a position I never practice from. So maybe Iím not as big disadvantaged as I make it out to sound. It itís some some disadvantage right? Even if itís 0.25 to 0.5 second and thatís the difference between first and middle rank probably?

    Also itís off putting because the coordinators are explicitly saying ďwe are afraid youíll shoot yourself so no AIWBĒ or maybe theyíre saying ďwe are an organization of old fuddy duddies who carry at 5 oíclock and AIWB would be faster than us if we allowed it so screw you itís banned so we arenít at a disadvantage and we can outcompete you because ALL of our practice works for both for real life and for competition is the same draw so we get the advantage over you whippersnappers not yet collecting social security who carry appendixĒ

    Is there really no competition that lets you draw from AIWB and make it actually closer to real life? Heck, there should even be a MUC stage beforehand that you have to go through before shooting. Not necessarily timed because itís subjective but looking down at my feet for one minute seems goofy whereas having a stage actor ask you for bus fare for the 30 seconds leading up to the beep is actually something that might happen in real life.

    Again Iím not pooping on competition because I really only did it once or twice maybe 20 years ago, but the few things Iím hearing here sound silly and make me less excited to try.
    USPSA is less restricted, depending on the what division youíre shooting in. Iíve clearly been the biggest critic in this thread, and would still strongly recommend everyone try it a few times. There really are some real benefits, and itís fun.


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  3. #143
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    Iím learning some things about competition here. I didnít realize you canít draw from appendix??? And one or more of them make you look down at your feet before you start?

    I have almost no competition experience as I said in my original post but both of those are pretty off putting to me. So then I either have to practice with my holster in a position I never carry it in order to ďwinĒ which is a training scar if I wind up training that ďwrongĒposition enough that I instinctively go there in real life. Or, I never train the draw from the competition holster spot and Iím doomed to lose because everyone else there will have spent time practicing from the OWB 5 o clock or whatever is allowed.

    If I go in knowing Iím doomed to lose, then thereís no stress because I know I canít win so whatís the point is being stressed when I lose, and that makes the whole things a lot less useful for stress inoculation.

    My assumption here could be way wrong though, maybe it wonít add much time to my draw if I draw from a position I never practice from. So maybe Iím not as big disadvantaged as I make it out to sound. It itís some some disadvantage right? Even if itís 0.25 to 0.5 second and thatís the difference between first and middle rank probably?

    Also itís off putting because the coordinators are explicitly saying ďwe are afraid youíll shoot yourself so no AIWBĒ or maybe theyíre saying ďwe are an organization of old fuddy duddies who carry at 5 oíclock and AIWB would be faster than us if we allowed it so screw you itís banned so we arenít at a disadvantage and we can outcompete you because ALL of our practice works for both for real life and for competition is the same draw so we get the advantage over you whippersnappers not yet collecting social security who carry appendixĒ

    Is there really no competition that lets you draw from AIWB and make it actually closer to real life? Heck, there should even be a MUC stage beforehand that you have to go through before shooting. Not necessarily timed because itís subjective but looking down at my feet for one minute seems goofy whereas having a stage actor ask you for bus fare for the 30 seconds leading up to the beep is actually something that might happen in real life.

    Again Iím not pooping on competition because I really only did it once or twice maybe 20 years ago, but the few things Iím hearing here sound silly and make me less excited to try.
    Personally, I would prefer that you and others that share your opinions and concerns not attend matches. I am all for getting more people involved in the gun games but there is a limit to how many people.

    If, at any point, someoneís reason for not shooting in a fucking game is ďitís not like real lifeĒ then I would encourage them to seek alternate means of amusement and entertainment.

    Thank you.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Personally, I would prefer that you and others that share your opinions and concerns not attend matches. I am all for getting more people involved in the gun games but there is a limit to how many people.

    If, at any point, someoneís reason for not shooting in a fucking game is ďitís not like real lifeĒ then I would encourage them to seek alternate means of amusement and entertainment.

    Thank you.
    Okay you made it clear what Iíve been suspecting as I read through a lot of older threads. The point of competition is to play a game and enjoy a completion and a byproduct of it is that you will get a little better in self defense real world shooting.

    What I was hoping for is an event where the purpose is to get a lot better for real world defensive shooting and the game is a secondary byproduct.

    I want to optimize for self defense and you want to optimize for the game. Yeah youíll get a little better for self defense shooting, but why canít we design a completion that puts the self defense first and the game second?

  5. #145
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Competition Bad Habits? Do any exist? Competing Anonymously possible?

    @Sanch, it may be that itís been a long couple of days and Iím a little grumpy. That said, youíre way off base about competition making people ďa little betterĒ. Comparing a C class USPSA shooter to the average guy, tactical Timmy, or average LEO makes it clear how even the low levels of the sport make people a lot better at shooting. Then consider what that person can do when they are also trained in defensive tactics.

    At the higher end, I know some GMs who are SWAT team leaders. Iíd love to have you chat with them about how competition made them ďa little betterĒ.

    USPSA is about shooting at the limits of human performance. Thatís what itís for, and if you want tactical training you need to get that as well, but separately.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 03-17-2020 at 08:47 PM.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    Okay you made it clear what Iíve been suspecting as I read through a lot of older threads. The point of competition is to play a game and enjoy a completion and a byproduct of it is that you will get a little better in self defense real world shooting.
    The point of shooting sports is to become as skilled as humanly possible with a firearm. Some types of shooting sports emphasize the practical aspects of firearm use.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    What I was hoping for is an event where the purpose is to get a lot better for real world defensive shooting and the game is a secondary byproduct.
    It's been tried many times and it has failed every time. You will not crack that nut. Period.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    I want to optimize for self defense and you want to optimize for the game. Yeah youíll get a little better for self defense shooting, but why canít we design a completion that puts the self defense first and the game second?
    You're stuck in a false dichotomy that most of us passed by a long time ago. You can either heed what you're being told: to go compete so that you can become as skilled as possible in shooting and to go train so that you can apply those shooting and gun handling skills in a defensive context; or you can keep on spinning your wheels asking "why can't I be right" on the internet.

    For fuck's sake, I posted a video made by Frank Proctor (a fucking US Army Special Forces veteran) where he explained why he participates in practical shooting sports. Do you really think he doesn't understand what he's doing?

    You know what, the more I think about you the more I agree with rob_s.......

  7. #147
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    Competition Bad Habits? Do any exist? Competing Anonymously possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    Okay you made it clear what Iíve been suspecting as I read through a lot of older threads. The point of competition is to play a game and enjoy a completion and a byproduct of it is that you will get a little better in self defense real world shooting.

    What I was hoping for is an event where the purpose is to get a lot better for real world defensive shooting and the game is a secondary byproduct.

    I want to optimize for self defense and you want to optimize for the game. Yeah youíll get a little better for self defense shooting, but why canít we design a completion that puts the self defense first and the game second?
    Itís all what you make of it. Youíre more than welcome not to game the stage ahead of time and stick relatively close to a defensive set-up gear wise, you just need to understand that you wonít be nearly as competitive. I shoot a Glock in open and I only game the stages about half the time. At the end of the day, as long as youíre safe and following their rules, and donít expect everyone to play by yours, no one will care. There are game-isms like having to keep your muzzle down range regardless of which way youíre running, but as long as you apply a tiny bit of critical thought and consider whether shit like that would be beneficial or detrimental in a defensive shooting, itís gaming wonít take anything away from your ability to defend yourself.


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  8. #148
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Frank Proctor (a fucking US Army Special Forces veteran) where he explained why he participates in practical shooting sports. .
    Add:
    Mike Pannone
    Matt Pranka
    Mike Seeklander

    And a many more top competitive shooters who are also well respected in the tactical world.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  9. #149
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    Sanch, I hope you took a look at that thread I linked earlier.

    One of our own members posted their experiences in shooting matches from concealed appendix last year.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....AIWB-Lim-Minor

    I myself have been able to participate in local introductory steel matches with USPSA-style rules.

    Take a look at this video with Chuck Pressburg. A lot of people responding to him misinterpreted his words.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dM6XRQCJY0

  10. #150
    Competition is a test of your ability to execute the fundamentals within a particular rule set. That rule set does not take or add anything away from the real world.

    The real world is just that. You're either a shit show when it comes to the fundamentals of running a gun or you're not. By the same token, you either make sound decisions or you don't.

    It's really THAT simple.

    If you train like an idiot and you shoot matches like an idiot, you will generally do idiot shit.

    Now, if anyone cares, my own personal experience.

    When I shoot on the range during practice, I tend to retract the gun a little too quickly in my mind, or the minds of others. My reasoning is, once the drill is over, i'm done and i'm moving onto the next thing. What I KNOW about this and consciously process is the fact that this is a DRILL, designed to test my skill set in some way or improve upon a particular skill.

    When I had my shooting, I did what I needed to do, searched for additional threats, tac reloaded my gun when I deemed it "safe" to do so and covered down on a hallway while my partner applied TQ's to the complainant/victim.

    My training or "range theatrics" as some people call them did not immediately force me to retract the gun once the threat was deemed down. I shot the threat to the ground and maintained lethal cover on it until my partner had reloaded and then I did so. The entire time, I was searching for additional threats and THINKING about what might occur rather than worrying about what I was doing with the damned gun.

    I understand why people harp on "range theatrics" and I agree that to a point, a lot of "doctrine" being taught, looks cool but serves no real purposes because you're teaching people to mimic a motion or process without them really understanding what the point is. There are ways in which some instructors improve upon this process but most people don't spend a lot of time instructing their students on shit that's not sexy.

    Go compete. Go have fun. Enjoy the hobby, enjoy the lifestyle however you regard it.

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