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Thread: Competition Bad Habits? Do any exist? Competing Anonymously possible?

  1. #121
    Site Supporter Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    I rarely deal in absolutes so if the experts are stating that competition shooting has absolutely zero possibility of ever creating a bad habit, then thatís fine, Iím cool with agreeing to disagree and never attending a class from them. I think itís unlikely, but itís absolutely possible.


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    How does this square the circle with police agencies that have competition teams. Our county's sheriff department and police department have competition teams, as does Houston etc.

  2. #122
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Normally before a stage run, I stare at the ground and only look up at the ĎAre you ready?í? Iím running my stage plan in my head.
    is there a defensive scenario where this would actually be a problem? You're in a situation that eventually turns into a justifiable shooting that has 20-120 seconds of "before" time that's entirely in your control?

    My guess answer is "maybe", but even then I'm not sure. I'm guessing that while the tweaker with the knife is standing in front of you demanding your wallet (or whatever other draw-from-concealment scenario you envision) you're going to be pretty fixated on him, and most likely the knife itself, USPSA participation be damned. Or, when that guy storms your church and you're closing the distance to shoot him in the head, I don't find it terribly likely that you're going to be looking at the ground playing out the scenario.

    But I could be wrong.

  3. #123
    Hobbyist JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    The timer and some self discipline will achieve the same result
    If you can't get more out of working with other people than by yourself, you have a learning opportunity.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    If you can't get more out of working with other people than by yourself, you have a learning opportunity.
    That's entirely a matter of opinion. Not everyone learns the same way.

    By myself I have total control over the direction of the session and no distractions. I could go on, but it's not necessary.

  5. #125
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Here's something else I want to say about "kilt in da streets..."

    A whole damn lot of the tactical crowd don't like competition for one simple reason... their scores suck. They have mastered dot torture at their thursday night range sessions, they "do well" at the classes they take (largely because the instructors aren't idiots and know that if you leave feeling bad about yourself you won't come back, but maybe that's a different topic...), they might even have a sub-second draw from appendix (or whatever the time benchmark is today), and so on.

    Then they hit a match. Maybe even the special olympics of competition, IDPA, because they think that's the "tactical" one. And they find out that even at the special olympics a lot of folks come to win and they get their shit pushed in by some doughy accountant from the gated community down the block. Out come the excuses. "I was shooting it tactically" or "they won't let me shoot from apendix" or "my real-world cover garment isn't 'legal' in IDPA", or, or or. *Maybe* they go to USPSA, because they CAN use their "real world" gear. Now they're mad that the rules aren't "fair". "yeah, they let me use my carry gear but my local match won't let me shoot from concealment and they're forcing me into open with all those 'game guns' (clutch pearls) where I never stand a chance". Plus, "and I was using 'real world' tactics".

    I think that most guys go through this cycle without even realizing it. And in today's world where you can go home, fire up the computer, and find like-minded folks to help you solidify that bubble you're building around yourself and help you justify all of the above and more. Pushing you further into your socially isolated opinion that gun games will get you killed.

    I know all of this because I was that guy. Not all of it, but a lot of it.

    Then one day my head popped out of my ass (at least partially, anyway) and it ocurred to me that "these things don't matter because they are two different things". Nobody expects Emerson Fittipaldi to crash his minivan simply because he was at a track last week. Usain Bolt isn't sprinting from his car to the grocery store simply because he's a runner. Magnķs Ver Magnķsson doesn't hurl bags of mulch over his own roof on during his Saturday yard work simply because lifting is lifting and he can't tell it's not an atlas stone.

    We conflate ninja shooting and game shooting simply because we can't see past the end of our own gun. We think shooting is shooting or guns are guns or "it's not the stakes it's the odds" (wait, do I have that backward? I can never remember, smells the same forward and backward). Or, we go looking for reasons to excuse the suckitude of our own shooting and in the process miss out on something that matters a whole lot more to your longevity that how you will perform in your fantasy gunfight: fun. Enjoyment. Happiness. Camaraderie.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Iíve only shot a handful of matches (less than 10) and Iíve never been in a gunfight, but there are two things that have always stuck out to me that people do in competition but probably not what you want to do in a real fight: reloading on the move and failure to use cover. The former is probably self-explanatory but just in case, many shooters will reload while moving because itís multitasking and theyíre not likely to be shooting on the move, so they do something else instead to save time. As for the latter, objects on stages are barricades to brace off of or obstacles to move/shoot around - itís pretty rare that youíll see someone lean out/pie-off an obstacle as opposed to blowing right past it to continue tackling the stage.

    That being said, I agree with others that the benefits far outweigh the cons. If nothing else, youíre unlikely to find a shooting experience that will present so many new scenarios/target arrays to you in the same day - especially for the price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    1. The process humans use is often referred to as task stacking, I thought that was common knowledge but apparently not. Also, I point out my experience so you know what my opinion is based off of. At least that way you can form your own opinion of my thoughts. But if you want to be a child and use it as a jab, I donít really care.

    2. I really donít understand how you draw parallels to chewing gum and walking with reloading on the move. The closest analogy was the basketball but even that only uses one hand.

    3. Another childish passive aggressive jab because I donít have a lot of competitions under my belt. Sorry that my amateur numbers donít make me worthy of your recognition. Iím not at all opposed to competition, it just hasnít been available to me until recently.

    4. I disagree. Maybe if that were my only way of getting any practice in, but thatís not the case. Also, itís 2020 and weíre talking about a weapon light - it really shouldnít be that crazy of an idea, but since it is, I didnít have the desire to see what other ridiculousness there was. Again, I have other options. I shoot USPSA in open because I like my carry gun and it was already setup in a way that dictated open - so be it.

    5. Iím not sure if this is referencing what I said or just the general notion. I never beat that dead horse.

    My point was simply that there are probably things you should keep in mind. The comment about shooting each target twice seemed sarcastic, but is also entirely true. As I said in my first post, the good outweighs the bad. But, if anyone still wants to debate it, Iíll happily create a thread with some test procedures laid out so members can actually try it out and post results. I really thought it was obvious that reloading on the move would probably slow most people down but maybe not.

    Also, Iím still wondering how beating someone to the draw and putting rounds on them first is even a valid consideration for the majority of self defense shootings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    This is my issue with this thread. So many of you seem to be making this into something it isnít. Iíve never said competition is bad for people primarily concerned with self defense/tactical shooting. All Iíve ever said is that thereís potential for some habits that may be a poor tactical decision is a general self defense situation.

    But itís like some of you guys are getting super defensive because Iím providing a legit criticism and the only way to argue against it is to assume Iím saying competition will get you killed and fight that argument. I like competition shooting, Iím doing it as often as I can and always have. There are significant benefits with it that you likely wonít get anywhere else. But that doesnít mean that it doesnít have the potential to breed bad habits in SD terms. As I said initially, itís worth it to me because the good far outweigh the bad. But itíd be done to pretend that itís impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    How does this square the circle with police agencies that have competition teams. Our county's sheriff department and police department have competition teams, as does Houston etc.
    See all of my above posts. My assumption is that they believe the same thing I do - there are significant benefits to shooting competition, hopefully they just agree that there is possibility that not everything is a 1:1 transfer and they have considered that.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGR416 View Post
    No one is getting super defensive, I am countering your argument. Isn't that what a discussion is about? Isn't that the whole point of a forum like this?
    You are making an assertion that I disagree with.

    You bring up people being creatures of habit, and that is the reason why someone will do something stupid, if they have done that thing enough to ingrain it.

    As I have said several times, that is a training issue, not an issue with competition. More specifically, a lack of scenario based training.

    Here is why I think you are wrong on that. Humans are very capable of observing something, and deciding on a proper course of action based on what they see.
    I have training on several different types of weapons, with vastly different manual of arms. Think AR-15 type weapon compared to a GPMG.
    I have never applied the incorrect malfunction clearance process to the weapon I was using; when shooting the HK416, I never tried to clear a malfunction using the process for an MG.
    If your theory was correct, I shouldn't be able to differentiate between the two.

    That is because I am capable of cognitive processing. As such, we are very well capable of differentiating between a competition setting and a gunfight, and will be fully able to employ cover and concealment properly during the latter.
    That's in part because an AR/416 feels nothing like a GPMG like the 240. There are very obvious tactile differences that indicate to your brain that you're not shooting an M4. A lot of people won't use certain accessories on a platform because their duty/CC guns don't have that. An example would be a BAD lever or ambi controls. The platform is the same so the differences are small, and you're much more likely to potentially make a mistake.

    But more to my point, I'm not saying that humans are incapable of separating the two. All I've ever said is that they need to consider that they might have to separate the two. You have obviously considered that manual of arms for a GPMG is different than an M4, that's all I'm advocating - consider that it may be possible. To continue using your analogy, the way I'm seeing this debate is that several members here are saying there is no possible difference in the way you'd operate a 240 vs M4.

  8. #128
    There is a significant distinct difference between competition and gunfights as well, namely that during one of them, people are shooting back at you.

    But you are saying that because one shoots competition, that the "training scars" established there will override this pretty significant distinction.

    I don't get it, no one has argued that competition is training for self-defense so why do you insist that competition skills will be used for self-defense?

    To continue using your analogy, the way I'm seeing this debate is that several members here are saying there is no possible difference in the way you'd operate a 240 vs M4.
    That is not what we are saying, at all.

    We are saying that it is possible to learn both and operate both, with no negative effect.
    Last edited by AGR416; 03-16-2020 at 11:14 AM.

  9. #129
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    I watched this today from Modern Samurai Project and thought of this thread:

    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_1YDkpBp7M" target="_blank">



  10. #130
    Scott is a buddy.

    I suggest people watch this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EkDq_SJpHo&t=3352s

    Two legit US SOF Shooters talk about how competition has helped their community.

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