NJ Hollow Point Arrest

[HCM]

I hesitate to judge without hearing what, if anything, the other side of the story is. I would assume (or at least hope) that if it the arrest was as blatantly stupid as it seems, the state would not proceed with prosecution and no defense fund would be necessary.

But, New Jersey, so...

Having seen NJ cops try and arrest active, on duty Federal LE for having issued hollow point Ammo in their duty guns and decades of prior bullshit by NJ LE I don’t hesitate at all.

On a related note, I had a NJ non resident carry permit for work at one point. My experience with the NJ state police was much better than the arbitrary and capricious experiences of my NJ based co-workers who were licensed by the patchwork of small agencies in NJ.

[CWM11B]

I have long said that the polymer tip exemption still does not make you legal in NJ. The law prohibits hollowpoints OR dum-dums. Critical duty/defense may not be a hollow point, but it is still a dum-dum (dumbass term for expanding bullet).


2C 39-3

f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet,

Except the law specifically names the round the guy was carrying as legal. Federal created a polymer tipped EFMJ over a decade ago to address this. I just stay ghe hell out of NJ, and the entire northeast in general. Problem avoided is a problem solved. For those who cannot, I'd damn sure stick to ball or WC/SWC. On its face, with the fact set presented, this is an illegal arrest.

[Jim Watson]

If the same criteria were applied to "dum dum bullet" as the gunboards apply to "clip" there would be nothing to do.

[TGS]

Except the law specifically names the round the guy was carrying as legal. Federal created a polymer tipped EFMJ over a decade ago to address this. I just stay ghe hell out of NJ, and the entire northeast in general. Problem avoided is a problem solved. For those who cannot, I'd damn sure stick to ball or WC/SWC. On its face, with the fact set presented, this is an illegal arrest.

To be clear, the allowance of polymer "plugged" rounds is an opinion issued by the NJSP, and not a law.

On the other end of the spectrum, dum-dum is not defined in the NJ law, so it'd be pretty hard to prosecute someone for possessing some vague object referred to by a slang term which isn't defined in the law. @0ddl0t, you, nor anyone's opinion on what constitutes a dum-dum matters. The only definition of a dum-dum that matters is the statute's, and it isn't defined.

[joshs]

I have long said that the polymer tip exemption still does not make you legal in NJ. The law prohibits hollowpoints OR dum-dums. Critical duty/defense may not be a hollow point, but it is still a dum-dum (dumbass term for expanding bullet).


2C 39-3

f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet,

Even if a court disagreed with the NJSP interpretation for polymer tipped ammo, a defendant should still have an estoppel argument based on that interpretation.

[Warped Mindless]

Laws aside, how big of an A Hole do you need to be to arrest a law abiding citizen (who does armed security no less) for possessing hollow point ammo?

Hope this dude wins a nice sized law suit.

[blues]

Even if a court disagreed with the NJSP interpretation for polymer tipped ammo, a defendant should still have an estoppel argument based on that interpretation.

Absolutely.

[Yung]

Speaking of lawsuits with cops on the least toast. Warning, allegedly alleged allegations in the article ahead.

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/loc...ch/4934376002/

Published 1:17 p.m. ET March 3, 2020 | Updated 2:48 p.m. ET March 3, 2020

A Westchester County man is suing the Village of Piermont and its police department for $10 million after a traffic stop ended in an alleged strip search, according to a lawsuit filed in federal court last week.

Patrick Baker of Scarsdale was allegedly speeding on Route 9W on March 14, 2019, when officer Peter Boutros pulled him over. During the stop, Baker allegedly told Boutros he had a legally registered and licensed firearm in the car.

Boutros allegedly took the firearm from Baker before bringing him to police headquarters, according to court documents.

When Boutros requested Baker's documents, he handed over his license, insurance and a PBA card that belonged to a friend, according to the suit.

Baker's car was searched by Piermont police without his permission, according the suit.

At police headquarters — which is inside Piermont's Village Hall — Baker alleges that Boutros humiliated him by standing next to him and saying demeaning comments while he used the bathroom, according to the suit.

Boutros allegedly strip-searched Baker without anyone else present, according to the lawsuit.

Once the search was completed, the lawsuit claims that Boutros threw a blanket at Baker and told him "see that wasn't so bad."

Within a week of an initial felony weapons charge, the Rockland County District Attorney reduced it to a fourth-degree misdemeanor. Charges were later dismissed entirely and sealed, according to court records.

Piermont’s Mayor, Bruce Tucker, declined to comment on the pending litigation.

James Hurley, Piermont's chief of police, did not return requests for comment.

Read the full suit here.

Here's the suit dox.
https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...t-Lawsuit.html

[TAZ]

Laws aside, how big of an A Hole do you need to be to arrest a law abiding citizen (who does armed security no less) for possessing hollow point ammo?

Hope this dude wins a nice sized law suit.

While I agree with this, the best this guy can hope for is that they drop charges and he goes back to having a job. No way in hell he is going to get any relief on against the cop. Maybe he can get some action on false arrest, but shouldn't hold his breath.

[0ddl0t]

Except the law specifically names the round the guy was carrying as legal. Federal created a polymer tipped EFMJ over a decade ago to address this. I just stay ghe hell out of NJ, and the entire northeast in general. Problem avoided is a problem solved. For those who cannot, I'd damn sure stick to ball or WC/SWC. On its face, with the fact set presented, this is an illegal arrest.

The NJSP issued an opinion that the round was not a hollow point. They never said it was not a dum dum, nor did they expressly say it was legal:

I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?

Yes. They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you. They are legal to possess and use at a gun range. They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.

Even if a court disagreed with the NJSP interpretation for polymer tipped ammo, a defendant should still have an estoppel argument based on that interpretation.

Sure, if you expect NJ courts to be reasonable. Brian Aitken found that they aren't...

I would not carry +P HSTs in gun-hating San Francisco for the same reason; they are technically illegal for civilians (while you can buy standard pressure HST in consumer packaging, 124 +p and 147 +p come only in "tactical" boxes marked for law enforcement).