NJ Hollow Point Arrest

[rsa-otc]

Speaking as a life long NJ resident of 61 years, with 45 years employed in the Armored Car industry, and 43 years with a valid NJ Carry Permit. Let me pop in with the following observations.

When I first got my permit in 1977 it did not have any restrictions listed on it. That all changed around 1982 when the state rewrote the statutes (more on that later). Since then I know of no permit issued to an Armored Car Employee that wasn't restricted to on duty only. In fact the northern counties were the worse in issuing restrictions. Some counties such as Essex they were listed on a separate 8.5 x 11 piece of paper. Popow vs Margate also had a significant impact on the restrictions Atlantic County placed on our permits.

I think I can speak with some authority on this subject since at one time I had 125 armed personnel under my supervision state wide. Currently I have 45. And have testified in front of the state legislature.And I work closely with the NJSP Firearms Division. Believe me they are sometimes as frustrated with the system as we are.

NJ Firearms statues are in need of a complete rewrite. Currently Chapter 39 outlines what you can't do. Which is practically everything under the sun. You need to go to Chapter 58 to find the exceptions. If you didn't know about chapter 58 you would think John Q Citizen couldn't own a firearm in this state. Chapter 39 and 58 need to be combined to make this simpler to understand for both the citizens as well as Law Enforcement.

Growing up in NJ firearms were not a big deal and I really can't say that the statutes were that burdensome. But after the 1982 rewrite the statutes and dealing with police have at times become an exercise in frustration and futility. Ones that for the most part I have learned how to live with in such a way as not to become to burdensome. I know for some of you that may be hard to believe. Depending on where you live some jurisdictions are quite easy to work with, others not so much. For example currently the township where I live is gun friendly. It routinely turns applications around in less than a week. Other jurisdictions push the limits and then some on the allowable time. Under the law they must complete your application in 30 days. I have seen it go a year. @TGS that was in Trenton which surprised me since they were always extremely timely in our dealing with them.

It took me a long time to adopt Critical Defense because even after I talked to the firearms unit and they assured me that it was OK; NO ONE could provide me this in writing. It was only after several years and every retired LEO in the state had been carrying it as confirmed by my FFL/Training/retired LEO friend that I broke down. Up until that point it was either lead or JSP's only. I was always afraid a prosecutor would say the law was intended to restrict expanding ammo and even in the NJSP's opinion polymer tipped ammo is designed to expand, thus the ammo is unlawful. As I discussed with TGS the prosecutor in this case may try to have the NJSP's opinion invalidated. Now I still see the guard in question getting off on the Hollow Point charge since he was operating under NJSP guidance but going forward the rest of us may be screwed. I believe the state's PBA and FOP will stand behind the NJSP's opinion since their retired members would be effected if it was reversed.

As long as the state keeps electing democratic leadership nothing is going to change. When Christie Whitman was elected and she was given a republican majority in the legislature we had hope much of this would change since she advertised herself as an avid shooter/sports woman. Unfortunately she got caught up in the whole police profiling scandal. That picture of her frisking a minority was the death stroke to her political aspirations. While Governor Crispy Cream was good for the gun owners of this state unfortunately he handled to many other things with a fat thumb and screwed up his carrier. Governor Murphy is a ticking time bomb for gun owners. He basically was voted in by both the free stuff brigades and those who were disgusted with Crispy.

[0ddl0t]

To support @TGS in regard to the last post, I've been involved in quite a few trials from the 80's to the 2000's and have won all of those that I presented through the U.S. Attorney's office in NY and South FL.

In that time, I cannot recall an instance where the Merriam-Webster dictionary was used as an expert witness on any topic.

On the other hand, the testimony of expert witnesses, whose bona fides are established by the body of their work, education and experience in the realm under examination, has been utilized countless times.

I'm not sure what @0ddl0t does for a living or where his expertise lies, but he clearly appears to be out of his depth in this arena.

Arguments over the definition & meaning of statutues are generally handled pretrial or in appeals, but they are not uncommon especially when it comes to the 2nd amendment (e.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ndment/607186/ ). While someone may be technically correct that you cannot make a Xerox on a HP printer, when linguists can show enough people using the term incorrectly it does become legally recognized to the point the company can even lose trademark protections (like what happened with Aspirin and Heroin - both originally trademarks of Bayer).

[willie]

I don't understand why any cop would give another a hard time, and it follows that any cop should not mess with a licensed security person. By mess with I mean fuck with. Further, that same consideration should be extended to all. NJ and NYC cops have arrested each other on handgun charges. I knew a Texas cop who, when he arrived at the airport in NYC, was arrested by the detective who met him. The Texas cop had a revolver in his luggage. He was there to transport a prisoner. What stupidity!!

[blues]

Arguments over the definition & meaning of statutues are generally handled pretrial or in appeals, but they are not uncommon especially when it comes to the 2nd amendment (e.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ndment/607186/ ). While someone may be technically correct that you cannot make a Xerox on a HP printer, when linguists can show enough people using the term incorrectly it does become legally recognized to the point the company can even lose trademark protections (like what happened with Aspirin and Heroin - both originally trademarks of Bayer).

Unless you can point us to your expertise in the judicial system, please spare those of us, who have spent a career in presenting and trying such cases, from arguments based upon articles you find on the internet.

If you value your articles over real life experience in the arena, then there's no need for further dialog.

[0ddl0t]

there's no need for further dialog.

On that, at least, we agree.

[Cypher]

I don't understand why any cop would give another a hard time, and it follows that any cop should not mess with a licensed security person. By mess with I mean fuck with.

The vast majority of police officers I have interacted with as a security guard have been courteous and professional but I've never encountered one who considered me to be "part of the team".

The few who haven't seemed to be operating on the assumption that I was a wannabe who flunked out of the academy (FWIW I never had any interest in becoming a cop or a security guard. A recruiter for HSS showed up at College one day and offered me a "temporary" job. That was 12 years ago and here I am.)

Having said that I would never expect a cop to overlook a flagrant violation of the law just because I was a security guard.

[rsa-otc]

Just came up on my Facebook feed referencing an article on NJ1015.com. The prosecutors have dropped the Hollow Point charge after their ballistic experts determined that the ammo was not Hollow Points.

As I said previously all prior articles left out the exact details as to how Twyne was transporting the firearm; whether it was cased or on his person. This article comes out and says he was carrying it on his person. Also that his permit was restricted to while on duty only and he was returning home at the time of his arrest. The wording on all my personnel's permit is quite specific and say not while traveling to and from work. What is not clear at this time is what the specific wording is on his permit. It may not specify and leave unclear as to that point. As of my last reading of the statutes there is no specific language that handles traveling to and from work when you have a permit; so the prosecutors are making an interpretation. Which is what Evan Nappen is arguing in Twynes behalf.

Now I respect Evan Nappen as NJ most knowledgeable legal expert on NJ Firearms Law, there are times his interpretations of the statues have cause me and some of my associates to scratch our heads trying to figure out where he came up with his reasoning.

I hope Nappen is successful on Twyne's behalf but I think the best Twyne can expect is to plead to a lessor charge and have his permit revoked.

[Alpha Sierra]

Arguments over the definition & meaning of statutues are generally handled pretrial or in appeals, but they are not uncommon especially when it comes to the 2nd amendment (e.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ndment/607186/ ). While someone may be technically correct that you cannot make a Xerox on a HP printer, when linguists can show enough people using the term incorrectly it does become legally recognized to the point the company can even lose trademark protections (like what happened with Aspirin and Heroin - both originally trademarks of Bayer).

Ya might want to stop...…..it's cringeworthy

[Sammy1]

I was at a shooting event at Sig. Another Officer and I were having a discussion about the NJ hollow point law (because I was driving through NJ the next week). My buddy said he didn't think they'd give an out of state cop a hard time about it. At this point, another shooter informed us that he worked for a NJ prosecutors office and that I would absolutely be prosecuted for carrying hollow points. The guy was a piece of work to say the least. I purchased critical defense to carry in my G27.

[TGS]

At this point, another shooter informed us that he worked for a NJ prosecutors office and that I would absolutely be prosecuted for carrying hollow points. The guy was a piece of work to say the least.

By "piece of work", do you mean that he was supportive of the idea of charging you, or somehow abrasive towards you guys about it?

As opposed to what I hope the conversation to be, something like, "Oh yeah, sorry man. I work as an investigator for the county prosecutor, and while none of us like it the prosecutor will probably take exception if your stuff is inventoried. We hate it too, no hard feelings, just the way it is."

ETA: Just to make sure, this was after LEOSA was amended to cover ammunition?