No, but the gun must be concealed.Originally Posted by Redhat
@Lon
If you are asked for ID, then you over hand over your DL and CCW. It’s more like an administrative rule from what I can tell. It’s not something I worry about one way or the other.
The training on these issues is terrible here as well, and the law is often overly complicated with too much and/or poor language.
That's Fear Biting, IMO.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
No, we have the MPA, motorist protection act, http://coferluster.com/is-it-illegal...-car-in-texas/
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
This law changed when I was in the academy. I forget the totality old standards, but @Rex G might remember them. Personally, I think the law was a big improvement. There is absolutely no reason you should need a license to carry it in your vehicle.
I live in a state without a duty to inform and I still inform them, personally. My state has no permitting system, only constitutional carry, so nothing would pop up on mdt's when the plate is run to indicate that I am carrying. I don't want to get shot over a misunderstanding and I see it as cheap insurance. Until recently, I carried strong side hip IWB, and I would always keep my hands on the wheel and when asked for my license I would inform them that I was carrying and that my gun was on my hip near my wallet. I would wait for permission before I retrieved my wallet. Every officer I've ever dealt with has been cool about it and it's probably more for my peace of mind then anything else but it just seems like the safest thing to do. I know the assumption is that everyone is armed, but there is a big difference between an an assumption and seeing a gun poke out from under my shirt while my hand is heading in that direction. I can just see several scenarios where the slip of a cover garment at the wrong moment or something like that could end up badly, particularly with a new officer or someone who is jumpy or noticed the gun at the last second. I don't think most officers fit that definition, but without a doubt there are some that do. All that being said, I don't think I would support a law mandating you to inform. I think it just creates the potential for people to get jammed up for forgetfulness or being distracted.
I'm an Ohio LEO, working for one of the larger agency's in the state.
First off Lon, I commend you for taking the time to go up there and give your testimony.
I am an FOP member. At my agency, they changed the mandate that you had to be an FOP member to be employed. You can opt out, but they still take the FOP dues out of your check. So might as well stay a member and have access to the FOP attorney in case I become involved in an incident in which I need legal representation.
When Ohio first came out with their CCW law, the mandate to notify a LEO was explained to us as a protective measure for both the LEO and the CCW holder. it was supposed to mitigate any misunderstanding in either side that may result in a tragic outcome.
I was a relief Sergeant for a number of years, and for the last 5 years, I have supervised our canine program, so it's been a minute since I've done a traffic stop. But nothing has changed. Our communications section will advise over the air if there is a CCW permit attached to a plate once they get the RCIC return. This will usually occur before the initial approach by the officer. So during a traffic stop, does the mandate increase officer safety? I'm not so sure if it has any real world effect either way. Where it would come into play in my mind would during a consensual stop of a person on the street or during a Terry Stop of a person, not in a vehicle. It is possible to stop a CCW holder driving a vehicle not attached to them, such as a rental car? Yes, but it's not the norm.
To be honest, I can't remember of anyone being charged with failing to notify an officer that they were a CCW holder within my agency. I'm sure it's happened, but it would be extremely rare. Usually if someone's charged, the charge is CCW. Or if they're drunk and armed, it's WUD. I would be curious to see the numbers across the state of how many people were actually charged, and of that number, how many people were actually convicted.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't an individual notify an officer that they're armed when stopped by a LEO?
I carry a gun off duty under LEOSA. On the rare times I have been stopped by a LEO, I always react the same. I have all the windows rolled down, the dome light turned on, my ID on the dash and both hands visible. My first response to the officer after their initial statement is to advise them that I am an off duty LEO who is armed. I have done this when traveling in states that do not have a legal mandate to notify the officer. If I were carrying a gun under a CCW permit, my reaction would be the same. I personally don't see the issue.
Exactly my own point of view and actions.
ETA: Despite my personal point of view and approach, I think Lon's presentation was not only well taken and spoken, but it addresses issues in OH state law which may penalize its citizens unnecessarily. This is very different from NC where the worst case is a relatively small fine for failure to inform. Big difference between incarceration and paying a fine for one's transgression.
You have my great respect, Lon. I know what it's like to take and present a contrary point of view. I've done it in court and it's not the most comfortable stance to take, but doing the right thing isn't about comfort.
Last edited by blues; 02-28-2020 at 11:32 AM.
There's nothing civil about this war.
Lon, very good job on the testimony. It was fun to watch. You didn't just give testimony, you taught a class!
We don't have a duty to notify in Washington, (and I'm just a government lawyer, not an LEO).
The one time I was pulled over (for tabs!) I made clear to mention I had a permit, was armed, and how, because I figured the Trooper likely knew anyway. No big deal for either of us, although I have to admit, even I was a bit nervous about it.
(Just for the record, my tabs still had the right month, they had just expired three days before, which the Trooper gave me a reminder about.)
But I thought your example of the harried mom was good, or the individual who is just contacted, but not detained.
A lot of us on this site think about this stuff quite a bit, and how we will respond, etc, but the average person just exercising his or her rights might not.
Because if it’s not particularly relevant to the encounter, why bring it up? If it’s a traffic stop for something like speeding I can’t see the reason to share that information. Should I also share what groceries I just picked up for the sake of conversation? Now if for some reason it comes to where the occupant(s) are being asked or told to exit the vehicle, now it’s a bit more relevant.
Some officers insist on disarming legally armed citizens for the duration of an encounter “for safety”. There’s pages on pages of writings on this board alone about how inept the average officer is regarding firearms, do we really need one of that group needlessly handling someone else’s gun?
Most officers are pretty nonchalant and will say something like, “Well ifyou leave yours alone then I’ll leave mine alone, sound good?”
Here in GA we have no duty to inform, we don’t even have our carry licenses tied to anything. To me it’s just needless because the legally armed citizen very rarely is the one you need to watch out for.
Lon made pretty good points in his testimony.
I don't have an issue with required notification. It's hardly onerous or intrusive. If you're a law abiding citizen, asking if you're wearing underwear is more so. Then again, "Muh rights, muh rights, but screw social responsibility!" However, I fail to see how this is an aid to officer safety. I always just assumed everyone had one regardless. If you wear a badge and you don't, you really need to reevaluate your perspective. None of the armed individuals I ever had to worry about would have done so, regardless of the law. "Excuse me officer, I just robbed a bank and I have four active warrants out, but I also have a gun, just sayin'."
My agency petitioned the state for citizen carry for a decade before it became reality. It was supported by the top brass as well as the rank and file. We've now had constitutional carry for a number of years and the barbarians haven't taken the citadel yet. Different regions and different mentalities I guess.
We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
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