Gun Guys: Don’t Do This to Your Guns

[corneileous]

Hmm, I figured it was good and informative video. I too don’t know why someone would want to fire 2000 rounds out of anything without lubing or cleaning on between especially when there was no need to according to them, if you didn’t have to but to all the naysayers, to each is own, I guess.

I had never heard about the slamming the slamming of the slide forward on an empty round but it makes sense to me. And the slamming of a fresh magazine when the slide was locked back.

I have heard however, about the no-no of slamming the slide forward over a manually chambered round not being good for the extractor.


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[HCM]

Ken and Bill have a lot of knowledge about 1911's and more modern designs too. One can ignore their observations and be worse off for so doing. They've each seen so many more examples of a given pistol in use, that their observations and opinions are based on much larger sample that a typical user.

Not letting a 1911 slam shut empty is just common sense. In operation, the pistol never slams shut empty. A tuned trigger will eventually be ruined by the practice. Frankly, I see no reason to let ANY pistol slam shut empty. Even with a Glock or similar, you're just beating the pistol unnecessarily. In firing, the blow will be lessened by stripping and feeding the next round up.

Flicking a revolver cylinder closed repeatedly will eventually misalign the crane. Again, why would you do that? If you've reloaded the revolver, your hand will be ON the cylinder. Just press the cylinder into the frame. If you're forced to do a weak or strong hand only reload. Go ahead and flick it closed if you wish. You've got bigger problems.

I can't see any merit to running a firearm for 2000 rounds without cleaning or lube. The late Todd Louis Green was fond of so doing as a test. I thought it was a useless exercise and still do. Does anyone really think they are going to have to shoot 2000 rounds through a pistol without having an opportunity to clean it or, at least, squirt a little lube in it? I'm not a cleaning fanatic. I generally won't clean a pistol until it's getting my shirt dirty. I will give it a shot of lube every once in a while.

Equipment should stand up to hard use, not stupid abuse. If you insist on slamming my car door just as hard as you can, every time you get in, your ass is going to be walking pronto.

I recall that when the Galil was first being fielded by the IDF, there were complaints that it wouldn't hold zero. Upon further examination, it was found that the issue was that the troops were just throwing the rifles down of the ground when they took a break. The Galil has a stamped receiver cover, like a AK. But, unlike an AK, the rear sight is on the stamped cover. So it was a training and user problem, not a gun issue. With a modicum of care, the problem ceased.

You don't need baby good gear, but you don't need to try to break it.

Rosco

Abuse and neglect are two different things.

The 2000 round challenge accurately reflects the neglect I see. It’s how most non gun hobbyist cops treat guns.

Larry Vickers comments about choosing a Glock over a 1911 if you treat your guns like your lawnmower are on point.

The traditional solution was to finish LE range days with a gun cleaning session. However, many LE ranges now prohibit gun cleaning as even with non toxic cleaning products, the waste becomes “hazardous” once exposed to weapons fired with lead ammo. This means it can’t go into the regular garbage and requires special handling which costs money.

One way around this is to go all lead free and non toxic but that creates its own set of issues.

[JAD]

If you treat a fitted 1911 like a glock, it will turn into a Glock, just not as ugly.

I never minded the 2000 round challenge and ran it with a couple of guns I think. It will loosen the gun up a little faster I guess, but whatever. My 1911s are still easier to shoot well than most of my other guns, and shooting well is the point.

[Trooper224]

I don't have much of a problem with any of the points raised in this video. Bill and Ken certainly know their way around a firearm after all. When it comes to training and tactics, I think Ken is increasingly in the "OK Boomer" category where it's time to sit down and take a breath. However, that's not what this video is about.

I think they're missing what, I believe, was one of Todd's main points in creating the 2k challenge. Todd's opinion was, there isn't a single manufacturer today whom you can trust to make a gun that runs right out of the box, every time. Not a one and I agree. One of the things the 2k challenge is good for is exposing manufacturing deficiencies and defects. Something that's a legitimate concern these days with any gun. I've done it with a couple of guns in the past, but don't make a habit of it. My training guns routinely run past 2k rounds without cleaning, but not without lubrication. The 2k challenge may not be the benchmark that a lot of cyber commandos think it is, but outrightly dismissing it is a bit of an "OK Boomer" moment.

I would like to thank Ken and Bill for reminding me why I no longer live with 1911s.

[Alpha Sierra]

Ken and Bill have a lot of knowledge about 1911's and more modern designs too. One can ignore their observations and be worse off for so doing. They've each seen so many more examples of a given pistol in use, that their observations and opinions are based on much larger sample that a typical user.

Not letting a 1911 slam shut empty is just common sense. In operation, the pistol never slams shut empty. A tuned trigger will eventually be ruined by the practice. Frankly, I see no reason to let ANY pistol slam shut empty. Even with a Glock or similar, you're just beating the pistol unnecessarily. In firing, the blow will be lessened by stripping and feeding the next round up.

Flicking a revolver cylinder closed repeatedly will eventually misalign the crane. Again, why would you do that? If you've reloaded the revolver, your hand will be ON the cylinder. Just press the cylinder into the frame. If you're forced to do a weak or strong hand only reload. Go ahead and flick it closed if you wish. You've got bigger problems.

I can't see any merit to running a firearm for 2000 rounds without cleaning or lube. The late Todd Louis Green was fond of so doing as a test. I thought it was a useless exercise and still do. Does anyone really think they are going to have to shoot 2000 rounds through a pistol without having an opportunity to clean it or, at least, squirt a little lube in it? I'm not a cleaning fanatic. I generally won't clean a pistol until it's getting my shirt dirty. I will give it a shot of lube every once in a while.

Equipment should stand up to hard use, not stupid abuse. If you insist on slamming my car door just as hard as you can, every time you get in, your ass is going to be walking pronto.

I recall that when the Galil was first being fielded by the IDF, there were complaints that it wouldn't hold zero. Upon further examination, it was found that the issue was that the troops were just throwing the rifles down of the ground when they took a break. The Galil has a stamped receiver cover, like a AK. But, unlike an AK, the rear sight is on the stamped cover. So it was a training and user problem, not a gun issue. With a modicum of care, the problem ceased.

You don't need baby good gear, but you don't need to try to break it.

Rosco

I don't have time to clean guns every single time I use them. I shoot certain handguns enough that cleaning them every 1000 - 2000 rounds is cleaning once a month.

That's more than enough, since they run and run and run.

2000 rounds isn't that much use for a modern service pistol, and as a somewhat active USPSA competitor it amounts to maybe 5 - 6 weeks worth of use.

[Tom Duffy]

Just wondering which one of our (increasing number of) resident contrarians will be the first to post, “OK, Boomers.”

I think that you just did.

[wvincent]

While the 2000 round challenge has it's place, I prefer to use Hilton Yam's 1000 round evaluation.
It's pretty 1911 centric, but would certainly crossover to any other semi-auto.

The empty chamber slide drop on a 1911 is just cringe worthy, however when you see a gun store employee do it repeatedly on a brand new STI DVC 3, it's enough to make Baby Jesus weep.

When I was checking out at the register, I had to bite my tongue and not offer to start a Go Fund Me so they could buy some snap caps for demoing slide stop reloads.

[TCinVA]

The original point of the 2,000 round challenge was to counter the idea Todd repeatedly encountered that you had to clean handguns for them to work reliably. This came about during his endurance tests when people blamed his lack of care for the issues that arose with the pistols in his writeups.

It was, of course, incorrect. A properly made semi-automatic pistol fed appropriate ammunition can fire thousands of rounds of ammunition through it without cleaning and not have a problem. There are enough entries in the 2,000 round challenge thread now to rather conclusively demonstrate that properly manufactured service quality handguns don't need to be cleaned after every use to keep them running reliably.

It's interesting to note that Todd wasn't just smoking crack when he came up with the idea. One of the key tests that resulted in the adoption of the 1911 as the US standard issue sidearm was when they fired 6,000 rounds through the pistol only stopping to disassemble, clean, and lubricate the test gun every 1,000 rounds.

Which, you will notice, ain't too far off of what Todd's 2,000 round challenge is.

Funny how that didn't get mentioned, isn't it?

Todd was trying to bring some sense about maintenance to the handgun the same way Pat Rogers had done with the carbine using Filthy 14. Anyone remember that rifle? The one that went almost 30,000 rounds without cleaning because Pat just put a little more lube on it when needed?

Todd was at the range with his test guns at least 2 or 3 times a week, averaging more than 1,000 rounds per week. For a few years. And he was doing what was acknowledged up front is a torture test. He did the most destructive thing you can do to handguns: Shoot them a bunch. That more than just about anything else will tear them up. While Todd lubricated his guns regularly, his time working for Beretta and Sig made it abundantly clear to him that handguns were most definitely not being properly lubricated out there in the field and yet the good handguns were still working pretty darn well despite the constant abuse and neglect that defines institutional use of handguns. Todd had insights into the training programs, maintenance efforts, and performance of some of the largest institutional users of firearms in the world.

And he had that in a way Bill Wilson doesn't and that even Ken Hackathorn likely never really did.

The no additional lubrication rule in the 2,000 round challenge isn't going to be optimal for reducing wear and tear on your firearm. All handguns work better and will be better protected against unnecessary wear if they are properly lubricated. I did a couple of 2,000 round challenges (documented in the thread) but beyond that it's most certainly not something I do with every handgun I purchase primarily because of the lubrication element. I most definitely shoot handguns I carry a lot before I carry them, and I never clean handguns any more than I have to. (I may punch the barrel with a brush once a year, and I may take it apart and wipe it down with a solvent-soaked rag a couple of times a year) I keep up with replacement part intervals so I can be sure that the gun works the next time I use it. Which is usually within a matter of days. I don't find myself in many gunfights, but I am on the range quite a bit either teaching or training and I use my carry equipment for that.

The 2,000 round challenge isn't a requirement, but if your gun is made properly odds are it will be able to get through 2,000 rounds without any maintenance without self destructing or seriously impacting its long term function. You should lube your guns, though. Especially if you are using an all metal gun like the 1911:



I didn't clean my Wilson CQB in 9mm for the first 4,000 rounds I fired through it. I did lubricate it before every trip to the range, though.

The day I took that picture was the day after I got home from one of the last times I saw Todd. We arranged a hasty get together on March 5th at The Hard Times Cafe in Rockville near where Todd lived. We (meaning Ernest Langdon, LittleLebowski, JV, JoshS, myself, and a few others) had gotten word that Todd's medical condition was deteriorating rapidly and we needed to go see him if we were going to before....well, before. Todd had kept his medical status very quiet for a long time, but things changed on him rapidly and so he found out one day that he was a lot worse than even he realized and had to figure out what to do about it.

When we went to see him that day he wasn't even able to walk by himself. Less than a month prior we'd gotten together to see 13 hours and while I didn't recognize him when I first saw him, he was able to walk and drive and do normal stuff. Except there was this one moment in the theater where he dropped his phone, but not in a way a normal person drops their phone. I picked it up and got it back to him and I stuck around until I was the last one left with him and asked him very pointedly if he was OK. That phone drop and his appearance worried me. He smiled at me and said "You're a good friend, Tim." and then closed the door on his Jeep.

Well, he wasn't OK. We spent the time we had at the cafe talking about gun nerd stuff like we always did. It was probably a massive relief for him to talk about gun stuff rather than the other things that had to be weighing on his mind every other minute of his days.

After that I was angry. The kind of anger that burns inside you when you are witnessing a monumental injustice...only there's nobody you can actually direct that anger at. So I stopped by Elite Shooting Sports in northern Virginia, whipped out my Wilson (I was carrying it at the time) and burned through ammo as fast as I could. I wasn't worried about lubrication or cleaning or, well, anything related to my gun really. I went through almost a full case of ammunition in the space of a little more than an hour. I just jammed magazines and burned through ammo to try and drain some of the rage out of my head.

And at the end of that, I didn't think about lubricating or cleaning my gun. I loaded hollowpoints back in it and stuffed it back into my waistband and drove the couple of hours home. I had to stop for gas and there were some seedy looking motherfuckers hanging around the station I stopped at. I didn't have a second's concern about my pistol working should they try something.

Point being, I had more important things to worry about than whether my gun was clean or maximally lubricated at that specific point in time. It was perfectly functional and had I needed it the gun would have still worked just fine.

I knew that, at least in part, because of what I'd learned from Todd.

Which brings up another point: If someone is going to talk about a man who isn't around to defend himself anymore, you'd think some care would be exercised in discussing the context behind something rather than just denouncing it. Especially when the guy who isn't here to defend himself anymore never did anything but show you the utmost respect.

But who gives a shit about stuff like that anymore, right?

[Redhat]

My question has always been...how did 2000 become the accepted number vs 1500 or 2500...or whatever?

[lwt16]

I'm on my seventh or eighth duty weapon issued to me by agencies over the years. I always ran 1000 rounds through whatever I got issued before I felt comfortable with the piece. A decent percentage of those had to be hollow points and once I was past the 1000 rounds mark, I considered it good to go.

Current Glock 45 was issued 12/14 and I am approaching the 1500 round mark. Not a huge number but I'm confident in the pistol for duty use.

Being subject to inspections I always cleaned them after every use and I was always a fan of oiling a semi auto. I bring gun oil to every class I teach and just last week I had a student with a Beretta 92 (well used) that just wouldn't run. I was asked to look at it by one of the range officers who was overwatching the kid and cycling the slide while empty I thought the recoil spring was shot it was so lackluster.

Pistol was beyond filthy and I didn't even ask when the last time it was cleaned was. I simply swapped out recoil springs with another student's 92 and that made no change whatsoever. Swapped the springs back to the original owners and went and got my gun oil out of my bag. Just a few drops got that pistol back up and running and we did no "cleaning" to it....simple lubrication got him back in the game.

Do what you want with your gear as far as cleaning is concerned. Just oil it so it doesn't slow down the class pace.

Regards.