Gun Guys: Don’t Do This to Your Guns

[JAD]

Thanks for the bring-down, Rich, it seems like they aren’t selling the Series 70 anymore. I don’t care too much about the 70 vs 80 part, but there was a general consensus that the S70 as produced up to a few years ago at least was the best possible base for a build. That may or may not be true of the new gun you mention.

But yes, as 1911-to-have-a-1911s go that looks fine. I don’t think people appreciate how awesome the design is until they work with one with the normal modifications (eg beavertail and extended thumb safety), but there is something really cool and fun about a bone stock GM.

[03RN]

Cough.

So, if one were just spit balling randomly, you know, for the experience of owning a 1911, would this be a decent starting point?

https://www.colt.com/detail-page/1911-classic

We are talking mainly for fondling, feeling the steel parts in assembly and disassembly, to appreciate genuine by-God JMB design in a what-Captain-America-might-have-carried 1911.

Oh and occasional shooting in Single Stack in USPSA.

Asking for a friend.

https://www.cdnnsports.com/colt-1911...U#.XlppGThOn3A

They also have the nearly identical S80 gun for $699

ETA
I always hoped Captain America would be OK with Springfields as well

[MDFA]

https://www.cdnnsports.com/colt-1911...U#.XlppGThOn3A

They also have the nearly identical S80 gun for $699

ETA
I always hoped Captain America would be OK with Springfields as well

I'm fine with Springfields as well. Go to the old Modern Service Weapons site and search MDFA. You'll find my thoughts on 1911's....

[farscott]

I think it is important to remember why the 1911 custom business got started, and it was not to make guns prettier. After WW II, the choices in service semi-auto pistols were few. The 1911A1, the Luger, the Walther P38, and the Browning Hi-Power were about it. And only the 1911 was chambered in the US service cartridge, .45 ACP. And it was by no means a perfect pistol. Hammer bite was a real thing, the sights were tiny, reloads could be slow if anyone even thought about reloading, and it may or may not have cycled anything but 230-grain ball ammo. A few people, perhaps the ancestors of P-F.com members, shot the .38 Super version that Colt offered.

The first change was to make the gun lighter and a bit shorter. That was the Colt Commander, originally intended by Colt to be the replacement for the 1911A1 in military service. When the post-war Uncle Sam did not bite, Colt offered it to the commercial market. And it was a big change. The Commander slide moves less distance as well as being shorter, the frame was aluminum alloy, the hammer was changed from a spur to a rowel, the grip safety reshaped for the new hammer, and the slide had lightening cuts next to the disconnector rail. It was the first variant (ignoring the A1 variant as a variant of the original 1911 spec), the first of a lot of variants.

Up until the late 1990s when Kimber started marketing the Custom as a 1911 ready to go out of the box, any 1911 bought at a gun store was pretty much the same as the guns made in the late 1940s. And a lot of serious users had issues and no viable alternatives for the only pistol chambered in the US service cartridge, creating a need for the nascent 1911 smithing industry than is so prevalent today. Cops were having better sights added to the guns, adding checkering or serrations to increase the grip, throating the barrel to handle the new-fangled HP ammo, and changing the metal finish to keep corrosion at bay. Military pistol teams were accurizing pistols with custom fit bushings welded up and machined down for match fit, welded up barrels, and better sights. People remembered the trigger shoe variants from the 1911 to the 1911A1, so trigger shoe variants started to appear. Once better sights were added to better-fit barrels, it was easier to note the limitations of the factory action. That started the action work craze. People shot more, and learned that enlarging and flaring the ejection port allowed for more consistent ejection, less damage to brass, and the ability to eject an unfired round through the port instead of down the magazine well. That led to looking at the ejector and extractor as not all ammo performed the same. Competition from S&W pushed the gun to need new chamberings, including the 9x19 and over-pressure .38 Super. That led to more part variants. Then people were wanted more rounds, leading to the 2011 and all of its variants. Then capitalism went to work and aesthetics as well as function became a way to stand out in an ever larger crowd. The first clones started to appear, and I think Springfield Armory was among the first. But the SA clones still looked like the guns from 1944. Nowadays people do not respect Kimber, but the original Custom was a huge deal as all of the necessary smithing that had to be done to a 1911 was done by the OEM. It was a truly better mousetrap. And Kimber inspired a lot of others.

With all of these parts originating in small shops and new manufacturers, it is no surprise that the parts deviated from any of the TDP (US GI) specs. The parts had to as the pistol was being was being re-purposed and there was no pattern that had to be followed. We are seeing the same thing with Glock; indeed we will see it with any popular platform. The Ruger 10/22, the Ruger Standard, the Remington 700, etc are all examples.

[Trooper224]

Visit the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas. You'll see a plethora of 1911s with modifications like better sights, extended thumb safties, etc. Many date to the pre-WWII era. Modifying the 1911 is an industry almost as old as the pistol itself.

Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn both possess a wealth of knowledge regarding firearms history and design. It's unfortunate that a discussion regarding them always seems to devolve into tired 1911 bullshit.

[Robinson]

Cough.

So, if one were just spit balling randomly, you know, for the experience of owning a 1911, would this be a decent starting point?

https://www.colt.com/detail-page/1911-classic

We are talking mainly for fondling, feeling the steel parts in assembly and disassembly, to appreciate genuine by-God JMB design in a what-Captain-America-might-have-carried 1911.

Oh and occasional shooting in Single Stack in USPSA.

Asking for a friend.

Yes Rich, that would be a decent starting point. The 1911 Classic is what most folks refer to as a Series 70 gun because it lacks the Series 80 parts. It is actually closer to a pre-Series 70 gun because it also lacks a Collet bushing and because it features roll marks from the pre-Series 70 era. It will probably be quite popular as a base gun for custom builds.

I have two of them - A 38 Super in which I installed a Colt OEM long trigger, and a 45 in which I installed an arched mainspring housing just to have a gun as close to a pre-S70 as possible. If you want to shoot the gun a lot, leaving the flat main spring housing in place and installing a long trigger would be my suggestion. The trigger I put in my 38S dropped right in with no fitting, but you would probably need to look on eBay for one as they are hard to find otherwise. Why Colt chose to equip the Classic with a flat main spring housing and a short trigger escapes me.

There are dealers on GB selling the Classic for $699 or so. Pretty good for a new S70 Colt.

You can also still find a basic Series 80 Colt (1991) if you look. The trigger on a S80 basic gun is generally not quite as good as a basic S70 but they are serviceable. Nothing wrong with the S80 guns.

[MistWolf]

Visit the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas. You'll see a plethora of 1911s with modifications like better sights, extended thumb safties, etc. Many date to the pre-WWII era. Modifying the 1911 is an industry almost as old as the pistol itself.

Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn both possess a wealth of knowledge regarding firearms history and design. It's unfortunate that a discussion regarding them always seems to devolve into tired 1911 bullshit.

It's easy to spend hours talking firearms with Ken Hackathorn. The breadth and depth of his knowledge and experience is staggering. He's well versed in other topics as well and a keen observer of human nature.

[Pacioli]

Which brings up another point: If someone is going to talk about a man who isn't around to defend himself anymore, you'd think some care would be exercised in discussing the context behind something rather than just denouncing it.

This was my reaction also, and it jaundiced everything else they said. It seemed mean to me, and unnecessary.