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Thread: Red Dot Pistol Sight question

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    The way you describe this (it’s the internet so words on a screen only go so far) it sounds like you are trying to reference the dot with the irons. Do you miss if you ignore the irons and place the dot in the top, bottom, right, and left of the window with the dot itself still on the target?

    When you say you’ve “tried” red dot guns do you mean you purchased one and put in the same amount of time and practice you do with iron sights? Did you get professional training on how to use the equipment like you did with iron sights?

    I’m not trying to be confrontational, but at this point, the biggest issue with pistol optics is that we have lots of shooters who only know irons and forgot all the work to get good with them - look at dots and figure they should be just as good as irons when they “try” them. Like Yoda said - you have to unlearn what you have learned, and that means the learning process needs to be approached from a “new” perspective. The problem may very well not be the optic, but may be more because you’re not approaching it the right way. How many people have we had to re-teach because they learned to shoot in a way that isn’t compatible with our methods? This is same.
    I don't own a pistol with a red dot. I'm trying to determine if the juice is worth the squeeze. I have shot red dot pistols with other instructors. I shoot my iron sighted handguns better and faster than many of my co-workers with their red dot pistols.

    As to my reference in post #1, I'm not referring to referencing the dot to the irons or doing a co-witness. I simply mean deliberately steering the pistol off target. While holding that, place the red dot where you want to hit and press the trigger. I miss every time. For me, I feel the red dot is less forgiving with an improper grip like I might have on the 2 way range.

  2. #12
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    How do you shoot against the other instructors when they’re shooting irons? A better shooter with irons will beat a lesser shooter with a dot but that doesn’t make the dot bad - it makes a shooter bad. Again - What you describe here on the internet is almost impossible to answer well because it’s like a new shooter saying “I put the sights on the target and miss every time”. I’ve heard it hundreds if not thousands of times and vastly more often than not it’s not the gun. You may be an experienced shooter but you are new to the dot. There is a learning curve as there is with any piece of equipment like a WML, new operating system, etc.

    It could be the optic but in my experience it’s usually the shooter. Again - with no reference to the irons, will the dot hit point of aim at 15yds if keep the dot on target but have it in the top, bottom, right, and left side of the window?

    Poor grip often translates to poor trigger or poor mental capacity to replicate expected performance. The information you provide is insufficient for me to make any definitive recommendation other than what I can based on my own experience training in multiple classes with and dedicated to the pistol optics, practicing a lot with the optic along with lots of other people, and training a bunch of people to use pistol optics.

    Long story short - pistol optics may not be for everyone, but like the firearm itself, if one wants to pursue it, they should seek competent instruction.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    How do you shoot against the other instructors when they’re shooting irons? A better shooter with irons will beat a lesser shooter with a dot but that doesn’t make the dot bad - it makes a shooter bad. Again - What you describe here on the internet is almost impossible to answer well because it’s like a new shooter saying “I put the sights on the target and miss every time”. I’ve heard it hundreds if not thousands of times and vastly more often than not it’s not the gun. You may be an experienced shooter but you are new to the dot. There is a learning curve as there is with any piece of equipment like a WML, new operating system, etc.

    It could be the optic but in my experience it’s usually the shooter. Again - with no reference to the irons, will the dot hit point of aim at 15yds if keep the dot on target but have it in the top, bottom, right, and left side of the window?

    Poor grip often translates to poor trigger or poor mental capacity to replicate expected performance. The information you provide is insufficient for me to make any definitive recommendation other than what I can based on my own experience training in multiple classes with and dedicated to the pistol optics, practicing a lot with the optic along with lots of other people, and training a bunch of people to use pistol optics.

    Long story short - pistol optics may not be for everyone, but like the firearm itself, if one wants to pursue it, they should seek competent instruction.
    Good question about irons vs irons. I'm on the upper end. Sounds like I need to commit and buy a red dot mounted pistol. Thanks to everyone that responded. I was hoping to save $1000. Not gonna happen. LOL

  4. #14
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasanova View Post
    Good question about irons vs irons. I'm on the upper end. Sounds like I need to commit and buy a red dot mounted pistol. Thanks to everyone that responded. I was hoping to save $1000. Not gonna happen. LOL
    I know your pain... I didn’t want to spend money on something I wasn’t sure would work and that wasn’t approved. A good deal and some luck got me a G17MOS and an RMR. Now I’m in five optic equipped pistols and I’m a believer... not just because I think the optic is such a game-changer, but also because of how it’s improved and increased perspective on my iron sight shooting.

    My department recently authorized pistol optics and The results I’m seeing are making me very proud of the work that went into it. I have also seen and experienced the frustration of the transition so what you have described is not unusual or an indication of under-performance. I think the frustration and learning curve are very worth it in the end.

    I’m also three days into four days of pistol optic work (two days teaching and two days as a student with a very good instructor) so I’m probably a bit more emotionally invested than I should be.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasanova View Post
    I don't own a pistol with a red dot. I'm trying to determine if the juice is worth the squeeze. I have shot red dot pistols with other instructors. I shoot my iron sighted handguns better and faster than many of my co-workers with their red dot pistols.
    In my opinion, it is impossible to outshoot an RDS on a pistol with irons given the same shooter. You can't compare yourself to other shooters, you need to compare to yourself.

    That said, despite slightly increased performance (especially as target difficulty increases), I do not think RDS are ready or appropriate for duty use at this point. There is so much that can go wrong with them, and at the end of the day, they wouldn't make a difference in 99% of the LEO involved shootings that happen within 5-7 yards. They make even less sense if you use a rifle as primary such as in a SWAT officer role. If you insist on going the RDS route, you really need a dedicated duty gun and RDS that see very little use, and a training/backup gun setup identically that you use at the range.

    Everyone is in a rush to justify swapping to RDS because it's the hot trend right now, my agency included. People take an RDS out and shoot nice tight groups on a qual course and then figure out a way to justify it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting RDS pistols and am competing with one as my primary division this year in USPSA, and I do think you'll learn something about your iron sighted shooting by spending time with the dot, but I wouldn't carry one on as a service pistol yet.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    In my opinion, it is impossible to outshoot an RDS on a pistol with irons given the same shooter. You can't compare yourself to other shooters, you need to compare to yourself.

    That said, despite slightly increased performance (especially as target difficulty increases), I do not think RDS are ready or appropriate for duty use at this point. There is so much that can go wrong with them, and at the end of the day, they wouldn't make a difference in 99% of the LEO involved shootings that happen within 5-7 yards. They make even less sense if you use a rifle as primary such as in a SWAT officer role. If you insist on going the RDS route, you really need a dedicated duty gun and RDS that see very little use, and a training/backup gun setup identically that you use at the range.

    Everyone is in a rush to justify swapping to RDS because it's the hot trend right now, my agency included. People take an RDS out and shoot nice tight groups on a qual course and then figure out a way to justify it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting RDS pistols and am competing with one as my primary division this year in USPSA, and I do think you'll learn something about your iron sighted shooting by spending time with the dot, but I wouldn't carry one on as a service pistol yet.
    I agree with you about the technology not being ready yet. I'm going to stick with irons for duty. Probably pick up a Glock MOS to familiarize myself with the red dot. There's a push with our tac unit for red dots. I'm not against the idea. I just want to be informed.

  7. #17
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    That said, despite slightly increased performance (especially as target difficulty increases), I do not think RDS are ready or appropriate for duty use at this point. There is so much that can go wrong with them, and at the end of the day, they wouldn't make a difference in 99% of the LEO involved shootings that happen within 5-7 yards. They make even less sense if you use a rifle as primary such as in a SWAT officer role. If you insist on going the RDS route, you really need a dedicated duty gun and RDS that see very little use, and a training/backup gun setup identically that you use at the range.
    There is so much that can go wrong with any piece of equipment. In my department’s pistol-mounted optic class last week we had a Glock that lost it’s front sight and the rear slid over a quarter inch in the dovetail. The optic still worked. i’ve seen iron sights move, leave the gun, lose the tritium or fiber optic insert, the gun break - I had a Glock stop working after being thrown in a slightly muddy puddle and being shot in the rain while still making 50yd high torso hits with an “old” type-1 RMR.

    I’ve also seen optics go down from failure (DeltaPoint Pros mostly and one -not mine - type 1 RMR at about 18,000 rounds) and screws coming loose or shearing. They are not perfect - neither are iron sights. Neither are rifle optics. Neither are we.

    We have optics with 40,000 to 50,000 rounds of use. I just finished four days of teaching and being a student of pistol optics. My M&P 2.0 and RMR went around 2,000 rounds. That’s on top of nearly 11,000 on that optic alone. I’ve never changed the battery since I got the optic in December 2018.

    It may not make a difference in extreme close range, but not all shootings happen at close range, and in fact many happen at longer ranges where the ability to transition between target and front sight with any effectiveness is poor. I can’t prove it, but I’m pretty sure at least one former cop/now felon would appreciate a better target focus.

    One point we agree... if you’re smart you have a duty gun and training gun. That’s a good idea regardless of whether you use an optic - ask LAPD about that and their Glocks.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    There is so much that can go wrong with any piece of equipment. In my department’s pistol-mounted optic class last week we had a Glock that lost it’s front sight and the rear slid over a quarter inch in the dovetail. The optic still worked. i’ve seen iron sights move, leave the gun, lose the tritium or fiber optic insert, the gun break - I had a Glock stop working after being thrown in a slightly muddy puddle and being shot in the rain while still making 50yd high torso hits with an “old” type-1 RMR.

    I’ve also seen optics go down from failure (DeltaPoint Pros mostly and one -not mine - type 1 RMR at about 18,000 rounds) and screws coming loose or shearing. They are not perfect - neither are iron sights. Neither are rifle optics. Neither are we.

    We have optics with 40,000 to 50,000 rounds of use. I just finished four days of teaching and being a student of pistol optics. My M&P 2.0 and RMR went around 2,000 rounds. That’s on top of nearly 11,000 on that optic alone. I’ve never changed the battery since I got the optic in December 2018.

    It may not make a difference in extreme close range, but not all shootings happen at close range, and in fact many happen at longer ranges where the ability to transition between target and front sight with any effectiveness is poor. I can’t prove it, but I’m pretty sure at least one former cop/now felon would appreciate a better target focus.

    One point we agree... if you’re smart you have a duty gun and training gun. That’s a good idea regardless of whether you use an optic - ask LAPD about that and their Glocks.
    I don't disagree with the fact that many RMR's are going for extended round counts, but I've also seen RMR's with much lower round counts die on the range. I also think the most successful RDS users are going to be dedicated enthusiasts, like yourself, who really stay on top of their equipment. Sure something can still go wrong, but you've likely trained for that, have back up irons, keep the glass and emitter free from dust and debris, stay on top of annual battery changes, have a dedicated training gun, etc. That description does not apply to 95% of LE, including SWAT or special mission teams. When we were issuing 1911's for SWAT personnel, I saw the average non-firearms enthusiast need their hand held just to get them to change the recoil spring and firing pin spring every 6 months. If I wasn't proactively handing them a new spring set and forcing them to measure the feed lip spread on their mags and replacing mags that were getting close to the edge of reliability tolerances, they would wait until the gun started to fail and then send it back to our gunsmiths. The same will be true for RDS, only you'll have officers who don't change batteries, fail to confirm zero from time to time, fail to keep dust and lint off their glass, don't train with their back up sights, and generally won't know there is a problem until they pull the gun out in a shooting or for quals.

    Additionally, most shooters aren't high level enough shooters to consistently acquire the dot on a flat range with a strong upright shooting stance. It is taking agencies hours and hours of transition courses just to build a reliable index, when in my opinion they have no business transitioning to an RDS if they didn't have that already. Then after transition school, they go back to a once-in-awhile qual or training cycle, and they will lose the index and repetition they've built. Now add in awkward shooting positions in and around barriers, one handed shooting right or left handed, and these average shooters will be hunting for a dot they will never find.

    EDIT: Case in point, I just handed my G34 with SRO to show a coworker, who is a firearms instructor and SWAT, to look at. He extended it out to aim it at a dry fire target on the wall and asked how you turn it on. It was already on.
    Last edited by Gio; 02-28-2020 at 09:29 AM.

  9. #19
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    This is the disconnect with pistol red dots that has the law enforcement firearm world literally repeating history. It’s like the old patrol rifles where you’d hand on optic equipped rifle to an untrained individual and they’d try to put the dot on the front sight. It’s like handing an untrained recruit a loaded gun. If we did that we’d have a lot of holes in people and things. In the “case in point” above, a piece of specialized equipment was handed to an untrained person and they didn’t know how to use it. I don’t understand how this is different from anything else and the fact that he wears black, green, or multi cam pajamas certainly doesn’t make him immune from the necessity for training on unfamiliar equipment.

    Add to that we (law enforcement) use tons (literally) of important equipment that requires training and maintenance - to argue that the world would fall apart if we use one small more with one small more battery is sort of overblowing the issue. Patrol rifle optics are basically the same technology with the same maintenance needs. How did we ever survive?

    Yep - There is a learning curve. Yep - it’s not for everyone. Yep - some people will fail to maintain the equipment and their survival or lack thereof will depend on well... luck. That is nothing new and the addition or lack of an optic can not and won’t change that.

    I will say that I agree with some of the prior posts in part. I don’t think department-wide conversions are a good idea unless they have a very strong training and accountability program and probably a very small number of officers. Forcing an unmotivated individual to use a pistol optic when most of their firearm training (and potentially the only halfway enthusiastic and effort-based training they’ve done) was with iron sights. A two-day class won’t work for them, and I’d doubt a week-long class would be effective without strong accountability to gain and maintain proficiency. I think pistol-optics are excellent as an optional piece of personally purchased equipment for a department with a good training program and accountability. I think there is strong potential for issuing pistol optics right out of the gate in academy training, and may significantly increase effectiveness and the learning curve, but I can’t say that definitively. Hopefully my department will get more answers on that over the next year and a half. The good thing is - we have a plan.

    So now let’s talk about finding the dot from a training perspective. The biggest reason people can’t find the dot is that they have been trained to present the pistol using iron sights. I’ve seen many beginning shooters start easily acquiring the dot after only a few minutes of instruction because they don’t have the habits of shooting a different way.

    The biggest difficulty in learning to shoot a dot is to let go of the way we did it before. For some that is faster and for some that is slower. Either way it’s a fairly straightforward process with proper training. So if a department is allowing pistol optics without a solid training program, that’s a problem. If a department hasn’t thought about potential ongoing skill issues and created a way to verify competency then that’s a problem. Sure, it’s new and scary and requires actual work and dedication.

  10. #20
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    I think @Gio and @SoCalDep are actually more in agreement than not on many of these points. My own desire to explore dots has to do with middle aged vision issues, not a hope for performance gains. I agree that they may represent a future better mousetrap for new shooters right out of the gate, but we've yet to see that played out in any large setting.

    Was having a meeting the other day with a Pistol Manufacturer rep, where a couple of our SWAT guys were present. They have made no secret of their desire to pursue a new handgun (Stacatto P Duo) and sight system (Deltapoint Pro). They are strongly of the impression that a 1 day conversion for a new pistol (from a DA/SA gun they've been shooting for years) is okay...and that 2 days to learn a red dot is "more than enough". I personally think that is irresponsible to the point of insanity. Folks are constantly appealing to authority by quoting former Tier 1 guys who have agreed that it shouldn't take more than a 10 hr day to convert a shooter to a new handgun platform (DA/SA to Striker, in the case of our agency). If we're talking about getting them to "qualify" on some C- bullshit agency course, then yeah, sure. If we're talking about having them operate the weapon safely under stress in the real world where NDs can mean loss of career, prison or death? No fucking way.

    I'm beginning to see Red Dots for experienced shooters the same way. I get why @SoCalDeps agency has the requirement that you shoot expert on their qual before you apply for the PMO program, and it isnt about whether you're a good enough shooter....it's about whether or not you are dedicated and disciplined enough to learn the new system, and properly maintain the equipment. For these reasons, I think LASO has it right.

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