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Thread: Red Dot Pistol Sight question

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    This is the disconnect with pistol red dots that has the law enforcement firearm world literally repeating history. Itís like the old patrol rifles where youíd hand on optic equipped rifle to an untrained individual and theyíd try to put the dot on the front sight. Itís like handing an untrained recruit a loaded gun. If we did that weíd have a lot of holes in people and things. In the ďcase in pointĒ above, a piece of specialized equipment was handed to an untrained person and they didnít know how to use it. I donít understand how this is different from anything else and the fact that he wears black, green, or multi cam pajamas certainly doesnít make him immune from the necessity for training on unfamiliar equipment.

    ....

    The biggest difficulty in learning to shoot a dot is to let go of the way we did it before. For some that is faster and for some that is slower. Either way itís a fairly straightforward process with proper training. So if a department is allowing pistol optics without a solid training program, thatís a problem. If a department hasnít thought about potential ongoing skill issues and created a way to verify competency then thatís a problem. Sure, itís new and scary and requires actual work and dedication.
    I think we are more in agreement than not. My point was this individual, despite being an above average shooter in the organization, will require significant training time to learn to shoot and maintain shooting ability with a dot. For shooters who aren't enthusiasts, I question whether they can maintain that shooting ability with a dot if they pick up the gun to qual 1-4 times / year with no extra effort or dry fire. The difference with patrol rifles is you have 3 points of contact on the gun that are fairly repeatable, so finding the dot is much easier and more consistent for average shooters. The optics are also a lot more durable and have been for a long time. I have a 1980's era Aimpoint 3000 that took a beating as a SWAT MP5/10 optic through the 90's and early 2000's before being retired from service. I have it mounted on a hobby rifle now and it has never lost zero or shut off unexpectedly.

    The problem I've seen from working with officers from hundreds of LE departments domestically and world wide is that very few agencies have such a solid training program in place to address skill issues, equipment issues, and verification of competency, and fewer still have the top level management support to spend the money to implement such a program. Kudos to your department if they're able to do that.
    Formerly givo08.

  2. #22
    A related problem is that installing an RMR requires specialized iron sights, and the design of the RMR makes using the iron sights much harder. The other day, the battery on the RMSc on my 43X died. Between the clear lens on the RMSc, and that it uses regular height sights, I could have carried on indefinitely with the BOLD sights on my 43X, and been hardly any worse off than having a 43X with just iron sights.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #23
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    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
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    That is remarkable. What a win for that optic.

  5. #25
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    I would agree the iron sight picture through an RMR isnít as good as many other optics, and certainly not as good as without, but compared to all those other optics one is significantly less likely to need those iron sights. Secondly, Iím not sure Iíd go with the term ďmuchĒ harder. One of the first things we do in our pistol optic class is have the students shoot the same timed course of fire from 25yds to 4yds that they shoot at the end of the course with the optic. The sights are perfectly useable and more so in low-light conditions with a WML.

    My point is not that everyone should have a pistol optic. I agree it takes effort to transition, but I disagree that the effort is so great as to be unsupportable in a general patrol-level law enforcement agency. The example of the SWAT officer taking one look at an optic and failing to see a dot is seriously flawed in this discussion. He is not motivated, did not purchase his own equipment, has no experience with the optic, and was set up for failure in the beginning by being handed an optic with no instruction. Itís not an argument against the optic. Itís an example of a horrible introduction to a new piece of equipment. If my buddy had done that to me when he introduced me to NVGs a month or so ago and I saw he posted about it insinuating the technology sucked because I couldnít find the focus ring, on switch, etc.... Iíd be a bit pissed.

    Motivated individuals donít necessarily need to be great shots, and they may be poor shots due to aging eyes or poor technique. There are numerous reasons the pistol optic can help in these areas by quickly uncovering shortcomings in techniques and supporting remedial training and practice. Pistol optics tend to improve iron sight shooting as well as a side-product of better overall technique. Thatís a motivation issue and not a skill issue. Much of that motivation is exemplified by the desire to spend the money on milling or on a new pistol, the optic, holster, and related accessories, not to mention the time in training to achieve proficiency. It doesnít require a massive amount of training to develop the proficiency. Some agencies may not have the resources to conduct a two-day training class. If thatís the case, maybe optics arenít on the table for now, but that doesnít mean other agencies that can train appropriately canít do it.

    Iíve had my fair share of experience working with law enforcement from the US and abroad and while I think that current cops (not the new recruit but people who have already been trained to a standard and are used to iron sights) should not be mandated to use an optic, I think the option has serious validity. It is largely self policing in the motivation department through the initial entry cost of equipment. A good training program will give the student the information and techniques to build skill, and will expose the shortcomings so there is no illusion of competency when itís not there. An entry requirement such as an ďexpertĒ rating or enhanced qualification score can further ensure good students. While I do think some standard for entry into the program can be of benefit, especially in the beginning, if that standard excludes the motivated individual with aging eyes who could clearly benefit from an optic, then itís sub-par. Our program will very likely lower the shooting standard (we will still have one, but it will not be expert) once our formal evaluation of the program implementation concludes.

    I very much agree with AMCís statements regarding training issues with the pistol and optic transition. I would not recommend a pistol type transition (ie: DA to striker to 1911 pattern, etc.) be combined with learning the optic. Too much going on... and in just a couple days for both? Nope nope nope.

    Further, if the SWAT team is standardized and must carry the same pistol, forcing an optic on those who may not be motivated can create serious issues. If itís for a distinct reason such as the use of NVGs, then accountability for skill must be seriously enforced. Learn it or make room for someone who will. Otherwise, and especially if recommending a minimal amount of training, anything other than it being an option is a recipe for disaster. On our department, a deputy who wants to carry a 1911 with an optic has to shoot expert, take a two day (16hr) 1911 course, AND a two day (16hr) optic course. We learned our lesson when we switched to a striker-fired pistol from a DA/SA platform (on an administrative level - weíd recommended a multi day conversion since the beginning but were overruled). Several of the increased unintentional/negligent discharges during that dark period were from our tactical team guys.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I would agree the iron sight picture through an RMR isnít as good as many other optics, and certainly not as good as without, but compared to all those other optics one is significantly less likely to need those iron sights. Secondly, Iím not sure Iíd go with the term ďmuchĒ harder. One of the first things we do in our pistol optic class is have the students shoot the same timed course of fire from 25yds to 4yds that they shoot at the end of the course with the optic. The sights are perfectly useable and more so in low-light conditions with a WML.
    If your timed standards are the same for BUIS as with the red dot, then you might have an opportunity to tighten up the red dot times.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    The example of the SWAT officer taking one look at an optic and failing to see a dot is seriously flawed in this discussion. He is not motivated, did not purchase his own equipment, has no experience with the optic, and was set up for failure in the beginning by being handed an optic with no instruction. Itís not an argument against the optic. Itís an example of a horrible introduction to a new piece of equipment. If my buddy had done that to me when he introduced me to NVGs a month or so ago and I saw he posted about it insinuating the technology sucked because I couldnít find the focus ring, on switch, etc.... Iíd be a bit pissed.
    I didnít hand it to him to set him up for failure, I was simply showing him my new uspsa setup. The fact that he couldnít find the dot isnít surprising, but considering he is an above average to strong LE shooter and couldnít get a proper index of the pistol with the dot proves that there has to be some transition training...you and I agree on that.
    Formerly givo08.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    If your timed standards are the same for BUIS as with the red dot, then you might have an opportunity to tighten up the red dot times.
    Wait... Are you saying the red dot is an advantage? No way. Weíll get killd in daí streetz!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    I didnít hand it to him to set him up for failure, I was simply showing him my new uspsa setup. The fact that he couldnít find the dot isnít surprising, but considering he is an above average to strong LE shooter and couldnít get a proper index of the pistol with the dot proves that there has to be some transition training...you and I agree on that.
    I do agree. Training is key. I was where he is once. We all were.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    I didnít hand it to him to set him up for failure, I was simply showing him my new uspsa setup. The fact that he couldnít find the dot isnít surprising, but considering he is an above average to strong LE shooter and couldnít get a proper index of the pistol with the dot proves that there has to be some transition training...you and I agree on that.
    Five years or so ago, I handed Manny Bragg my Glock with an RMR while doing a tutorial in Frostproof, and he said ďhow do you turn the dot on.Ē Response ó ďManny it is on.Ē
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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