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Thread: "Dot Torture Drill Revised"

  1. #1
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    "Dot Torture Drill Revised"

    https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...drill-revised/

    An individual named Frank Melloni wrote this.

    For about the last 5 years or so the popular Dot-Torture drill and target have been showing up in a multitude of defensive courses, both introductory and advanced in nature. If you aren’t familiar with this routine, it is a simple 50-round defensive pistol drill that incorporates nearly every aspect of using a gun for self-defense. While the program encourages a smooth draw, transition and trigger squeeze, it has two fundamental flaws:

    1. There is no time limit.
    2. The targets are incorrect with respect to their application.
    From an older thread in times past:
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-Torture/page6

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Dot Torture, in my opinion, is a lousy drill. It's a very good test. As such, the frequency with which you should shoot it depends on how often you believe you accuracy fundamentals need testing. Testing in and of itself doesn't lead to improvement. It can only point out what we're doing wrong and where we need to improve.

    If you cannot score 50 on Dot Torture going slow, going faster is not a solution. It's a smokescreen.

    The "90% hits fast" thing should only come into play on a drill after you can get 100% hits slowly. And then only if my goal is to be faster performing that particular task.

    I've got no heartburn with someone who wants to shoot Dot Torture at speed. It will test something different, but it's still valid. It's not an ideal way to do so, but it can work. I just wouldn't worry about the speed until I could clean it on demand at a slow pace.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Blinder View Post
    Since I'm the infamous David Blinder, thought I'd lob a comment on this. I'm reminded of a lady who asked the golfer Ben Hogan how to make a 1 iron back up and he asked how far she hit a 1 iron. When she replied "about 150 yards", he asked "why the hell would you want it to back up?"

    The moral to my story is if you can't do it clean slow and/or at short range, why the hell do think doing it fast or longer with misses is a good thing? It was designed as a test of marksmanship fundamentals and nothing more. The faster/farther you can do it clean, the better your fundamentals.

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    Yup, he completely misses the point of Dot Torture, i.e. that it is NOT a "DEFENSIVE" drill, it is a trigger control and mechanics drill.

    Melloni is a self taught competition shooter who has appeared on the Top Shot TV show but is better known for high power rifle than any great success or expertise in Pistol games. Regardless, just because Forrest Gump could run, doesn't mean he could be a good track coach.

    Being a good shooter is only one of several skill sets required to be a good instructor, others being adult learning theory, instructional design (ability to develop the training content to reach goals), ability to teach /present/ communicate and ability to diagnose and correct issues. Melloni is a fail on all but the first.

    Now the other bone to pick...

    These targets command perfect sight alignment, sight picture and nothing short of a perfect trigger squeeze. Again these are all fundamentals that take a backseat in life or death scenarios and even the practical shooting sports to some extent.
    This guy knows nothing about "life or death scenarios" and is WAY out of his lane.
    Last edited by HCM; 02-23-2020 at 02:56 AM.

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    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    an individual named Frank Melloni
    Meh
    https://rfimediaevents.com/about/ins...frank-melloni/

    Reminds me of the guys that think we need to re-write the four rules. They either. Ever understood them to begin with, or are trying to make a name for themselves “slaying sacred cows”, or both.

  4. #4
    I think, as others have posted, the dude is missing the point of what Dot Torture is supposed to do.

    I actually shoot DT every time I go to the range. It’s a way for me to make sure my fundamentals are solid/decent. If I’m gonna miss a shot it’s almost always on #8, but lately I’ve been cleaning DT at 3 yards regularly.

    Anyway, as others have said, I think DT is a really good test. Like a lot of good tests, it can be very very humbling. I have a friend I shoot with a lot that really really hates DT but he also sees the value in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Reminds me of the guys that think we need to re-write the four rules. They either. Ever understood them to begin with, or are trying to make a name for themselves “slaying sacred cows”, or both.
    Depends on what you mean by rewrite. A lot of trainers I've been to have added a fifth rule and go into a discussion of how they interpret the previous four as part of their safety briefing. Off the top of my head, I think of Mrs. Lauer and Mr. Johnston's spiel as a good example of this.

    The NRA and the NSSF don't quite follow Cooper's rules either.

    Slaying sacred cows, or at least tipping them over, isn't necessarily a bad thing. The difference between constantly reexamining dogma with critical thinking versus misinterpreting it with an ulterior motive, will show itself in the resulting practice and application.

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    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    Slaying sacred cows, or at least tipping them over, isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    Buncha little kids setting out to do it just to get internut famous and so they can use that godawful Stupid fucking phrase is the worst thing.

    In fact, I’d vote for an instant ban for anyone using that phrase to describe their own opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    godawful Stupid fucking phrase is the worst thing.

    In fact, I’d vote for an instant ban for anyone using that phrase
    Then it seems to me that it's the phrase itself that bothers you rather than the idea of rethinking firearms safety rules. I think I kind of get where you're coming from; I just got back from a rainy class with Ian Strimbeck in Casa Grande yesterday, and while he knows he has a reputation for a high chance of precipitation in his classes (I guess some folks jokingly refer to his company as Rain Nation), he took a moment to express his distaste for that old rhyming chestnut which I'm also tired of, and went into the details of why. I think it's a good case of something that came from military or law enforcement instruction that doesn't adapt quite well to open enrollment.

    In the case of what you're talking about, I would guess that it might have to do with the original context of where I've seen it used, specifically in particularly terse dialogues about atheism or agnosticism, or something similar that may include anything ranging from skepticism to condemnation of Judeo-Christian elements, though I'm aware the origins of the idiom had more to do with Hindus and their treatment of beef.

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    Hobbyist JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    . The difference between constantly reexamining dogma with critical thinking .
    Dogma should be frequently re-examined through critical thinking, but if it doesn’t lead you to a deeper and more profound grasp of the same dogma, you’re in the wrong church.

  9. #9
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    https://rfimediaevents.com/about/ins...frank-melloni/

    Cool story bro

    After competing nationally on History Channel’s Top Shot against the country’s best marksmen
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 02-24-2020 at 05:58 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    Dogma should be frequently re-examined through critical thinking, but if it doesn’t lead you to a deeper and more profound grasp of the same dogma, you’re in the wrong church.
    There’s also a difference between “standing on the shoulders of giants” and understanding, building upon, and improving what exists... and simply declaring your own expertise, and deciding that you know better than the giants without first understanding the foundations of a particular discipline. I see a lot more of the second in the current era.

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