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Thread: USN training

  1. #1
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    USN training

    FYI - saw this and it's interesting.

    https://blog.usni.org/posts/2020/02/18/ten-points

    Discusses the services' small arms training.

  2. #2
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    The very first US Navy decoration I earned was the Pistol Expert Medal, in 1984 during USNA Plebe Summer (their version of boot camp/basic training/BMT).

    The very next day I earned it, I doubt I could have shoot a Novice score on the IDPA classifier if that test had existed back then.

    I can count with the fingers of one had the times subsequent when I had a loaded firearm in my hands for any duty purpose during the next 10 years (4 at Annapolis, 6 in the fleet) that I wore a Navy uniform.

    I doubt things are much better for the average sailor today.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    The very first US Navy decoration I earned was the Pistol Expert Medal, in 1984 during USNA Plebe Summer (their version of boot camp/basic training/BMT).

    The very next day I earned it, I doubt I could have shoot a Novice score on the IDPA classifier if that test had existed back then.

    I can count with the fingers of one had the times subsequent when I had a loaded firearm in my hands for any duty purpose during the next 10 years (4 at Annapolis, 6 in the fleet) that I wore a Navy uniform.

    I doubt things are much better for the average sailor today.
    I carried a fair amount more than that. Still Navy instruction was pretty minimal circa late 80's early 90's.

    A 2 hour(?) Instruction block in boot camp with a .22 conversion 1911. A little more in the Fleet to qualify as Petty Officer of the Watch. A little still more to qualify as part of the ship's security force (pretty much every topsider is part of the security force). All told I don't think instruction across pistol, rifle, shotgun, and grenade launcher totaled more than 5 hours all together (not including annual qualifications). Our 1911's were extremely worn and gave a master's class in clearing feed cycle failures though.

    This was also around the time they stripped the roving patrol of pistols since a kid committed suicide while armed on watch. Only a nightstick for the rover from then on. Them small arms are dangerous ya know!

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    What is the level of small arms proficiency that we want the general service member to to acquire, how much of their available training schedule are we willing to expend on small arms training, and what level of financial expenditure are we willing to tolerate to make it all happen?

    Of course, I would support more and would argue that plenty of time is wasted on less essential topics (former Navy civilian, we managed to be exposed to some of the CBT silliness) and that a much higher general level of small arms proficiency could be achieved with only marginal increases in training- as long as that training is of a much higher level.

    I hope that DoD's commitment to M17/M18 ends up resulting in the guns being issued as broadly and as regularly as anyone can stand, and justifying the training by pointing out that if everyone is expected to armed, then everyone should be expected to be trained.
    Per the PF Code of Conduct, I have a commercial interest in the StreakTM product as sold by Ammo, Inc.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    I hope that DoD's commitment to M17/M18 ends up resulting in the guns being issued as broadly and as regularly as anyone can stand, and justifying the training by pointing out that if everyone is expected to armed, then everyone should be expected to be trained.
    I don't think the DoD's commitment to the M17/M18 spans much outside of the procurement community. What I mean by that is that much of the DoD doesn't care about skill at arms, at all.

    I won't speak for other services, but I'm pretty sure the Navy neither expects (nor wants) everyone to be armed.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    What is the level of small arms proficiency that we want the general service member to to acquire, how much of their available training schedule are we willing to expend on small arms training, and what level of financial expenditure are we willing to tolerate to make it all happen?

    Of course, I would support more and would argue that plenty of time is wasted on less essential topics (former Navy civilian, we managed to be exposed to some of the CBT silliness) and that a much higher general level of small arms proficiency could be achieved with only marginal increases in training- as long as that training is of a much higher level.

    I hope that DoD's commitment to M17/M18 ends up resulting in the guns being issued as broadly and as regularly as anyone can stand, and justifying the training by pointing out that if everyone is expected to armed, then everyone should be expected to be trained.
    USN is only getting approximately 50,000 M18s. With roughly 340K sailors of all ranks, that works out to one pistol per seven-ish sailors.

    BLUF, for the Blue Water Navy, pistols are pretty much completely irrelevant, with exception of embarked MAs and for aviators/aircrewmen who might find themselves on foot in hostile territory.

    Not saying I wouldn't be ecstatic to see some of the ridiculous CBT replaced with range time. However, small arms range space on most Navy installations is EXTREMELY limited, so without a sea change (see what I did there?) in focus on small arms, I don't see anything new on the horizon for sailors.

    I had a similar situation with an Army MI soldier while I was working for the Air Force in TX. She couldn't meet quals at Ft. Hood - because basically they handed her a pistol and 60 rounds of ammo, then said "qualify," no training besides the most rudimentary weapons handling. After three tries, she was told she would be removed from her deployment roster. Her significant other hooked her up with me, we spent about a half day on the range, and, wonder of wonders, she could EASILY pass the Army qualification.

    Frankly, with the exception of the Marines, none of the services give their general-service troops (e.g. NON-LE) training worth a shit with sidearms...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    USN is only getting approximately 50,000 M18s. With roughly 340K sailors of all ranks, that works out to one pistol per seven-ish sailors.

    BLUF, for the Blue Water Navy, pistols are pretty much completely irrelevant, with exception of embarked MAs and for aviators/aircrewmen who might find themselves on foot in hostile territory.

    Not saying I wouldn't be ecstatic to see some of the ridiculous CBT replaced with range time. However, small arms range space on most Navy installations is EXTREMELY limited, so without a sea change (see what I did there?) in focus on small arms, I don't see anything new on the horizon for sailors.

    I had a similar situation with an Army MI soldier while I was working for the Air Force in TX. She couldn't meet quals at Ft. Hood - because basically they handed her a pistol and 60 rounds of ammo, then said "qualify," no training besides the most rudimentary weapons handling. After three tries, she was told she would be removed from her deployment roster. Her significant other hooked her up with me, we spent about a half day on the range, and, wonder of wonders, she could EASILY pass the Army qualification.

    Frankly, with the exception of the Marines, none of the services give their general-service troops (e.g. NON-LE) training worth a shit with sidearms...
    Sort of true, sort of not. Small arms still come into play for ship commands for security in port, boarding parties, and security of certain weapons systems.

    Most Navy small arms are issued circumstancially on a time share basis. Armed watchstanders pass their pistol to their relief. Security force in port is tied to a watch section which means a small portion of a small portion of the crew at any given time. The security force only draws arms from the arms locker when a security alert is called. Most of the security force is also drawing small arms other than pistols. Boarding parties are a very small portion of crew and again draw from the arms locker as needed. 1 in 7 should stretch pretty far under those circumstances and does not indicate the number needing trained and qualified.

    Ranges on base both is and isn't an issue. Pistol, shotgun, and grenade launcher training and quals were done at sea off the flight / helicopter deck. Adds a whole extra dynamic qualifying while the deck is pitching and rolling :-) Rifles on the other hand required a range and slots were pretty hard for ships to get when I was in.

  8. #8
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half Moon View Post
    Sort of true, sort of not.

    Ranges on base both is and isn't an issue. Pistol, shotgun, and grenade launcher training and quals were done at sea off the flight / helicopter deck. Adds a whole extra dynamic qualifying while the deck is pitching and rolling :-) Rifles on the other hand required a range and slots were pretty hard for ships to get when I was in.
    I won't dispute that it's easy to make the banging noise off the flight deck or fantail, but most of that "training" I've seen consisted of trying to hit the ocean, and succeeding occasionally.

    I've only been posted at four USN bases over the last 20 years (spent a lot of time in remote offices). Two of those had no ranges at all. The two that have ranges, one is a dirt berm with no cover for targetry or the firing line, and is located about 3 miles back on unpaved "roads" - so definitely limited use. We could shoot in the rain, but paper targets and a downpour don't make for quality training. Forget about the four months of the year when the weather was too cold/snowy for training. The base I'm at now has an indoor range, with five, count 'em, five firing lanes. The target on one of them hasn't worked in over 7 months, so, realistically, you can only have four shooters at a time for through put.

    For our offices in Newport and CT, the base ranges have either been closed or unavailable for use due to scheduling issues, driving them to constantly search of range availability off base.

    All of this might be different at Norfolk or San Diego, but I've managed to avoid those places like the plague.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    I won't dispute that it's easy to make the banging noise off the flight deck or fantail, but most of that "training" I've seen consisted of trying to hit the ocean, and succeeding occasionally.

    I've only been posted at four USN bases over the last 20 years (spent a lot of time in remote offices). Two of those had no ranges at all. The two that have ranges, one is a dirt berm with no cover for targetry or the firing line, and is located about 3 miles back on unpaved "roads" - so definitely limited use. We could shoot in the rain, but paper targets and a downpour don't make for quality training. Forget about the four months of the year when the weather was too cold/snowy for training. The base I'm at now has an indoor range, with five, count 'em, five firing lanes. The target on one of them hasn't worked in over 7 months, so, realistically, you can only have four shooters at a time for through put.

    For our offices in Newport and CT, the base ranges have either been closed or unavailable for use due to scheduling issues, driving them to constantly search of range availability off base.

    All of this might be different at Norfolk or San Diego, but I've managed to avoid those places like the plague.
    We weren't shooting at the ocean with pistol or shotgun. Stanchions and lifelines removed from a portion of the deck. . Actual targets set and graded for points with a prescribed format for pistol I don't entirely recall. Something like x rounds at y yards strong hand, weak hand, longer range two handed, longer range freestyle, longest range kneeling. Rifle range time was the hard one to get. I actually got out of a priority project once because a range slot opened and our leading chief wanted me finally M-14 qualified. Then again my experience is getting near 30 years out of date and mostly applies to service on a single destroyer.

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