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Thread: Retention Shooting in an Entanglement - a video

  1. #1

    Retention Shooting in an Entanglement - a video

    It has become far more popular for a lot of instructors to teach shooting at contact or entangled distances. I am seeing it crop up again and again with new courses popping up all the time.

    I am all for this, with the caveat that the instructor has actually put the work in. Rather than just show something that they have given little thought or effort to in order to appear that they are “cutting edge”, or that they have spent zero time exploring in force-on-force scenarios against role players that have the freedom to act as bad guys truly act, as long as the instructor has done the work, I will support them 100%.

    Unfortunately, that effort into doing the work is generally overlooked, and replaced with the “well, I have been teaching shooting for 40 years” or “I have been LE for 40 years” or “I was a SOF face shooter in Dirkadirkastan” and they teach incredibly sub-optimal techniques. This area demands as much thought and effort and study as trying to get a sub second draw, or shooting B8s at 25 yards, and anything less is doing the students a complete disservice, and arguably is unethical.

    And just having certain components at a high level - i.e. the instructor is an excellent shooter, or is a BJJ black belt - does not meant they will get it. Shooting in an entanglement is its own thing, and requires that the instructor has put time into it, nit just the individual pieces. A couple of years ago, there was a video from two top black belts, both with direct ties to the founders of the art, showing how to shoot at contact. It was atrocious, mostly because while they both are undoubtedly better at BJJ than I am, they have never been shooters. They live in an area where they cannot carry as a private citizen, and have never been in LE or the military, so they have no clue about shooting, which means they have no clue about shooing in an entanglement.

    Here is a video showing some explanation of a couple of crucial things to deal with in retention shooting. If an instructor ignores these, than I submit he has not done the work.

    For info about training or to contact me:
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  2. #2
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    Before this movie scene, the general consensus seemed to be more focused on breaking off the entanglement and create distance, because introducing a gun into an entanglement was an exceptionally high risk proposition. Not that we'd let Hollywood drive tactics. I think a lot of "trainers" are their students are just playing out little fantasy land scenarios, and trying to cash in on a craze.
    Last edited by txdpd; 02-20-2020 at 03:40 PM.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post


    Before this movie scene, the general consensus seemed to be more focused on breaking off the entanglement and create distance, because introducing a gun into an entanglement was an exceptionally high risk proposition. Not that we'd let Hollywood drive tactics. I think a lot of "trainers" are their students are just playing out little fantasy land scenarios, and trying to cash in on a craze.
    To be fair no one ever really put the work into ascertaining if presenting a pistol within an entanglement was a viable course of action. The only attempt made to do so where some strategies and tactics were presented for public consumption was by Kelly McCann in his “Combative Handgun” DVD in the late 90s. That was essentially his and Bob Kasper’s Kni-Com curriculum adapted to a pistol. It was an attempt at examining the issue and the viability of doing something besides karate-ing your way out to some kid of retention position while back pedaling.

    I applied the word “entangled” to what I’ve developed since then to specifically connote the differences between the older strategies.

    Breaking range and fighting one’s way out can and certainly has worked. Until you can’t or there’s no place to go....such as you’re buying dope in a car when shit goes south.

    There was no available or developed body of work when I had the experiences I had working undercover from ‘96-‘98. This was what created ShivWorks and ECQC.
    Last edited by SouthNarc; 02-20-2020 at 05:08 PM.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter SeriousStudent's Avatar
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    Excellent video, and I really liked the use of the SIRT as a teaching aid. It helped make the point quickly and clearly.

  5. #5
    Irony Connoisseur Sidheshooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousStudent View Post
    Excellent video, and I really liked the use of the SIRT as a teaching aid. It helped make the point quickly and clearly.
    You should also see the SIRT in action in grounded entanglement scenarios. Cecil showed us pretty decisively that it’s entirely possible to straight up miss someone that you are in direct physical contact with, and entangled with without a solid index. Sobering stuff.

    @Cecil Burch, nice gym, dude.
    "Sometimes there is fuckery afoot."
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidheshooter View Post
    @Cecil Burch, nice gym, dude.


    Good gym and good cameraman.......
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  7. #7
    Member Earlymonk's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing this, Cecil. Good stuff.

    Wondering--given the sometimes crazy-to-the-point-of-unbelievable things bullets do inside of bodies--if you know of examples of a bullet ricocheting in some wacky way off the curvilinear surface of the ilium? I can imagine in an entangled fight using a downward muzzle angle to shoot a pelvis and having the bullet glance off one of its major structures and hit me in the lower extremities anyway! (Then again, I'm Irish...)

    Totally realize that he would likely be in worse shape than I, but it's an honest question.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Earlymonk View Post
    Thanks for sharing this, Cecil. Good stuff.

    Wondering--given the sometimes crazy-to-the-point-of-unbelievable things bullets do inside of bodies--if you know of examples of a bullet ricocheting in some wacky way off the curvilinear surface of the ilium? I can imagine in an entangled fight using a downward muzzle angle to shoot a pelvis and having the bullet glance off one of its major structures and hit me in the lower extremities anyway! (Then again, I'm Irish...)

    Totally realize that he would likely be in worse shape than I, but it's an honest question.

    It's a really, really good question.

    I have not heard of anything like that in any way, but that DOES NOT mean it could not happen. Weird stuff occurs in fights, so it is totally a possibility.

    It gives credence to the idea that there is no perfect solution that will work perfectly 100% of the time. All we can do is try to find the ones that work with the highest percentage that is reasonable.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  9. #9
    Member Earlymonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    All we can do is try to find the [solutions] that work with the highest percentage that is reasonable.
    Amen!
    And thanks for the reply.

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