Tactical Turtle

[Trooper224]

This is just a pet theory of mine, but I generally think that enthusiasm for dogma correlates negatively with true expertise, just because real world situations always end up being a blurry mess which give you conflicting lessons about what to draw from them.

So when anyone advocates for a really specific grip, or stance, or trigger press...I usually become skeptical. I apply this to most forms of expertise, in fact. Anytime someone says "we know this is the way" I wonder how much to trust the lesson. Of course, many of my experiences in life have resulted in skepticism about expert opinion, and the more confidently expressed the opinion, the more I have learned to be wary. Dogma is seductive. Credentials are deceptive. There's a whole lot of people who, on paper, you should listen to, but are just repeating the opinions of their instructors.

Medium-easy to identify a bunch of things that definitely don't work. Much harder to find the one way that will work best. For this reason alone I would be skeptical of anyone saying "but you need to have stance X."

I'm pretty much of the same mind. Every trainer with sexy sleeve tatts and a neck beard, or aviator glasses and a ball cap if it were the 80's, has their own snake oil they're trying to sell. As has been pointed out, tunnel vision may indeed limit the value of such concerns. In the end, putting the rounds where they count is the entire point. No violent encounter I've ever had went according to plan. Unarmed encounters generally wound up being an old fashioned back alley ass whupping, regardless of techniques trained up on. Guns out scenarios seldom started with a classic weaver or isosceles stance. However, there are good, better and best ways of doing anything. Consequently, we should train to the highest standard available to us, in the attempt to minimize our personal fuck ups. As the man said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." Still, having a plan is always a good idea.

[Hot Cereal]

Who cares if someone turtles or not? Can they shoot? If it works for them who cares. So much bullshit gets argued about on this forum its hilarious.

[Redhat]

Who cares if someone turtles or not? Can they shoot? If it works for them who cares. So much bullshit gets argued about on this forum its hilarious.

Haven't noticed any arguing here...just good discussion

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Who cares if someone turtles or not? Can they shoot? If it works for them who cares. So much bullshit gets argued about on this forum its hilarious.

It's the nature of high-level performance...you have to concern yourself with the details of technique.

I would never tell anyone they should care about the finer points of shooting. Not unless they wanted to shoot well. But places like glocktalk and calguns are proof positive that the overwhelming majority of gun owners don't really have much interest in that and to those people I would say: shoot however you want; it will have no measurable impact on your life. Which is totally fine, of course, just a different crowd than PF-C.

[HopetonBrown]

So much bullshit gets argued about on this forum its hilarious.

You mean people are discussing shooting on a shooting discussion board?!

[GyroF-16]

Who cares if someone turtles or not? Can they shoot? If it works for them who cares. So much bullshit gets argued about on this forum its hilarious.

Yes, the fine points of tactical shooting are being discussed here.
Not sure if you noticed, but several of the folks giving insights have... been involved in real-world shootings.
When that happens, I listen, and rarely speak, unless it’s to ask a question.

This forum is different.

[txdpd]

So is tunnel vision no longer a "thing" in tactical / defensive shooting?

Is that making the rounds again on the things that will get you kilt in da streetz? If it is then deliberately doing the tactical turtle really doesn't make sense to me. It's a lot of added movement out of the firing position to scan and more added movement to get back into a firing position. Even lowering the pistol into a scan position, the chin is still going to hit the shoulders before you get to a normal range of motion. Honestly I've never seen anyone stay in hunched up like a turtle to scan.

If tunnel vision is a thing, shouldn't we try not to impede rotation of the head to maximize the field of view.

[YVK]

To my eye making this 'tube bit public doesn't do well as an advertisement for his classes of video analysis of shooters' form.

[Hot Cereal]

Is that making the rounds again on the things that will get you kilt in da streetz? If it is then deliberately doing the tactical turtle really doesn't make sense to me. It's a lot of added movement out of the firing position to scan and more added movement to get back into a firing position. Even lowering the pistol into a scan position, the chin is still going to hit the shoulders before you get to a normal range of motion. Honestly I've never seen anyone stay in hunched up like a turtle to scan.

If tunnel vision is a thing, shouldn't we try not to impede rotation of the head to maximize the field of view.

Some institutional dogma bs there. I just turtled and I had zero issues turning my head. Plus, the cover, scan, bullshit is just that- bullshit. It's square range garbage that is nothing more than a place marker for what you should be doing. If you're truly scanning the gun comes with you, your position is changing, etc. Your entire body should be moving, not just standing in place turning your head. Once you consider that, turtling or not is irrelevant.

For those who say it has zero point because muscle mass and shoulder blades, etc. don't stop bullets I disagree. Will it stop all or every bullet from hitting you in a vital area- no. Can it make it harder for that to happen- yes. Is that a valid reason to turtle- no. If turtling makes you a smaller target- great. Less target space for Johnny Chodeface to aim / shoot at.

I'd say a better reason to turtle is because the root word of gunfight isn't gun, it's fight (JY you're right about that). Most of this stuff happens at very close range. Being able to not only put rounds rapidly on target, but defend yourself from impacts is important. The chances of a perp taking some rounds to the thoracic cavity and just dropping at spitting distance aren't great unless you destroy/damage the CNS or achieve a psychological stop- Oh shit this guy just shot me! I'm done. Plenty of video evidence that shows cops being blasted from impacts after they put rounds into someone. If you're already in a fighting position, absorbing/deflecting an impact blow is much easier in the "tactical turtle".

If you're doing square range shoot at paper that never shoots back stuff then it's going to require more movement to protect yourself from those impacts. I've had my own personal experience fighting someone who's just taken lead and it isn't a walk in the park.

But, like I said, to each his own. I am a marital artist and a shooter so I tend to naturally turtle because that has been ingrained into my fighting style. Tactical dogma runs rampant throughout the "tactical training community". There is more than one way to skin a cat. If you don't want to turtle for XYZ reasons, great. I don't care, doesn't impact me, that's how you fight.

[txdpd]

Who cares if someone turtles or not? Can they shoot? If it works for them who cares. So much bullshit gets argued about on this forum its hilarious.

Some institutional dogma bs there. I just turtled and I had zero issues turning my head. Plus, the cover, scan, bullshit is just that- bullshit. It's square range garbage that is nothing more than a place marker for what you should be doing. If you're truly scanning the gun comes with you, your position is changing, etc. Your entire body should be moving, not just standing in place turning your head. Once you consider that, turtling or not is irrelevant.

For those who say it has zero point because muscle mass and shoulder blades, etc. don't stop bullets I disagree. Will it stop all or every bullet from hitting you in a vital area- no. Can it make it harder for that to happen- yes. Is that a valid reason to turtle- no. If turtling makes you a smaller target- great. Less target space for Johnny Chodeface to aim / shoot at.

I'd say a better reason to turtle is because the root word of gunfight isn't gun, it's fight (JY you're right about that). Most of this stuff happens at very close range. Being able to not only put rounds rapidly on target, but defend yourself from impacts is important. The chances of a perp taking some rounds to the thoracic cavity and just dropping at spitting distance aren't great unless you destroy/damage the CNS or achieve a psychological stop- Oh shit this guy just shot me! I'm done. Plenty of video evidence that shows cops being blasted from impacts after they put rounds into someone. If you're already in a fighting position, absorbing/deflecting an impact blow is much easier in the "tactical turtle".

If you're doing square range shoot at paper that never shoots back stuff then it's going to require more movement to protect yourself from those impacts. I've had my own personal experience fighting someone who's just taken lead and it isn't a walk in the park.

But, like I said, to each his own. I am a marital artist and a shooter so I tend to naturally turtle because that has been ingrained into my fighting style. Tactical dogma runs rampant throughout the "tactical training community". There is more than one way to skin a cat. If you don't want to turtle for XYZ reasons, great. I don't care, doesn't impact me, that's how you fight.

That was a sudden turn.