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Thread: Post-HB961 Suppressor Quest

  1. #21
    Until this was brought up, I forgot how awesome the Vox S is.

    Around 15:17 on this video is funny.

    #RESIST

  2. #22
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    I watched that video last week. It was what finally convinced me the Vox was the way to go.

    Chris

  3. #23
    So yield strength, doesn’t amount to much in this discussion. That’s the ‘big’ selling point of the Vox. It’s information, that to my pea-sized-brain doesn’t amount to anything other than very questionable marketing.

    There’s no free lunch. Yield strength doesn’t inherently mean you get better abrasion resistance. The yield strength of stainless is more than adequate for building a superb can. The repeated use of phrasing about the marvels of this particular super-alloy, would seem to indicate that it’s something...vastly different than anything else on the market, yet Stellite is cobalt-chromium alloy, not to mention that Inconel is a nickel-chromium ‘super-alloy’ itself.


    This is a different alloy than has been used before. They’ve done some interesting things. I want to like what they’ve done. They overlook that some of us don’t want to have a product ‘sold’ by repeated statements that don’t, by themselves, have much to do with what matters in this application.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    ABQ, NM
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_S View Post
    So yield strength, doesn’t amount to much in this discussion. That’s the ‘big’ selling point of the Vox. It’s information, that to my pea-sized-brain doesn’t amount to anything other than very questionable marketing.

    There’s no free lunch. Yield strength doesn’t inherently mean you get better abrasion resistance. The yield strength of stainless is more than adequate for building a superb can. The repeated use of phrasing about the marvels of this particular super-alloy, would seem to indicate that it’s something...vastly different than anything else on the market, yet Stellite is cobalt-chromium alloy, not to mention that Inconel is a nickel-chromium ‘super-alloy’ itself.


    This is a different alloy than has been used before. They’ve done some interesting things. I want to like what they’ve done. They overlook that some of us don’t want to have a product ‘sold’ by repeated statements that don’t, by themselves, have much to do with what matters in this application.
    Working professionally with high end aftermarket turbochargers helped me develop more than a passing familiarity with the materials in question. I have to give them a nod for doing something different and pushing for something new outside of the endless field of 6061 and 17-4 and Grade 6 Ti in the competition. Some new materials do actually let you have your cake and eat it too, like the 'Gamma-Ti' turbine wheels found in some modern aftermarket turbos. Light as hell and strong and amazingly resistant to wild temperature deltas.

    If you want to go micro-level over analysis and play the pure optimization curve between your performance needs in a suppressor and cost, the best bet is to DIY on a Form 1 because otherwise I don't think you'll never be satisfied.

    The Vox is profoundly overbuilt for my needs and otherwise reasonably priced against its competition. It's also made by a company that cares enough about their product to get weird with testing but is business savvy enough to make fun marketing and pretty Titanium weld porn from it too? I can get on board with that.

    I'll take material science nerdery and pretty Ti welding over "USED BY THE SPECIALIST SPECIAL FORCES TACTICAL TIP OF THE SPEAR FIPE PITTERS HARD CORPS TACTICAL RAH" marketing that typically comes with suppressor marketing.

    Besides, purely operating on price it's still competitive, too.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_S View Post
    So yield strength, doesn’t amount to much in this discussion. That’s the ‘big’ selling point of the Vox. It’s information, that to my pea-sized-brain doesn’t amount to anything other than very questionable marketing.

    There’s no free lunch. Yield strength doesn’t inherently mean you get better abrasion resistance. The yield strength of stainless is more than adequate for building a superb can. The repeated use of phrasing about the marvels of this particular super-alloy, would seem to indicate that it’s something...vastly different than anything else on the market, yet Stellite is cobalt-chromium alloy, not to mention that Inconel is a nickel-chromium ‘super-alloy’ itself.


    This is a different alloy than has been used before. They’ve done some interesting things. I want to like what they’ve done. They overlook that some of us don’t want to have a product ‘sold’ by repeated statements that don’t, by themselves, have much to do with what matters in this application.
    Why are you so worried about abrasion resistance? You're not dragging the can over gravel. Mine doesn't have a scratch on it so far. It sounds like you're hunting for a reason to dislike a can that's lighter than a Sandman S, yet tougher than it, and also has a universal mount combined with the cool front wipe. Not to mention that it's not expensive. The Vox is a win.

    @kedminster
    #RESIST

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_S View Post
    So yield strength, doesn’t amount to much in this discussion. That’s the ‘big’ selling point of the Vox. It’s information, that to my pea-sized-brain doesn’t amount to anything other than very questionable marketing.

    There’s no free lunch. Yield strength doesn’t inherently mean you get better abrasion resistance. The yield strength of stainless is more than adequate for building a superb can. The repeated use of phrasing about the marvels of this particular super-alloy, would seem to indicate that it’s something...vastly different than anything else on the market, yet Stellite is cobalt-chromium alloy, not to mention that Inconel is a nickel-chromium ‘super-alloy’ itself.


    This is a different alloy than has been used before. They’ve done some interesting things. I want to like what they’ve done. They overlook that some of us don’t want to have a product ‘sold’ by repeated statements that don’t, by themselves, have much to do with what matters in this application.
    Are you a metallurgist with experience with maraging steels?

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

  7. #27

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_S View Post
    So yield strength, doesn’t amount to much in this discussion. That’s the ‘big’ selling point of the Vox. It’s information, that to my pea-sized-brain doesn’t amount to anything other than very questionable marketing.

    There’s no free lunch. Yield strength doesn’t inherently mean you get better abrasion resistance. The yield strength of stainless is more than adequate for building a superb can. The repeated use of phrasing about the marvels of this particular super-alloy, would seem to indicate that it’s something...vastly different than anything else on the market, yet Stellite is cobalt-chromium alloy, not to mention that Inconel is a nickel-chromium ‘super-alloy’ itself.


    This is a different alloy than has been used before. They’ve done some interesting things. I want to like what they’ve done. They overlook that some of us don’t want to have a product ‘sold’ by repeated statements that don’t, by themselves, have much to do with what matters in this application.
    Hi Dan! I think what you are asking about here is hot gas erosion (rather than abrasion). Hot gas erosion is where the bore of a silencer is damaged/worn by the action of the particles in the hot muzzle gas stream impinging on the baffle particularly in the area of the baffle bore.

    We have handled that in a few ways. The 'lip' profile of our baffles is on the heavier/thicker side. This allows more energy to be absorbed in that small area and provides a wide cross section for heat conduction from the lip into the cone of the baffle. When a particle impacts the 'lip' some of it's kinetic energy is lost and converted to heat. if you don't have sufficient mass or conduction path the lip will overheat and the material will soften as it's temp rises. Fortunately C300 holds it's strength well at elevated temps but we still want to keep hot spots minimized in those critical areas.

    We increase the surface hardness and erosion resistance by nitriding (ferritic nitrocarburizing) the Vox during heat treat martensitic aging. Nitriding is a diffusion process that changes the crystalline structure in a surface layer of the base metal and significantly increases it's hardness and resistance to erosion.

    Cobalt chrome (stellite) and Inconel are fantastic materials; we are certainly not trying to play them down. They both have excellent hot gas erosion characteristics but also have some limitations (cost, tensile strength, manufacturing processes, etc.). When designing any product you look at all the design requirements/goals and try to find an optimum balance between often competing requirements. When we engineered the Vox we did an analysis that included both of all these materials and concluded that for our particular design we could engineer our best design from C300. We sought the best overall efficiency in terms of dB/oz. (mass efficiency ), dB/in. (length efficiency ) and dB/in^3 (volumetric efficiency) while also being robust enough to handle high firing schedules on high power cartridges without barrel length restrictions. Not gonna lie; that is not an easy engineering problem to solve!

    Hopefully this answers some of your questions about why we chose the path we did and explains that this was driven by engineering principles and not marketing. That is probably a good thing as we are happy to be engineering nerds and are really terrible when it comes to slick, polished marketing

    If anyone else ever has any questions I will be glad to do my best to answer them. We love engaging with the community and are honored to be a small part of it. Thank you to all that have helped us get here!



    Karl Edminster
    Energetic Armament LLC

    https://energeticarms.com/

  8. #28
    The Vox definitely looks interesting. I’m a little confused about the mounting it though. I haven’t been able to find adapters for the different popular mounts (key mo, ASR, plan b, etc). These are possibly stupid questions but I have very little suppressor experience. Does the Vox mount to all of these by default? Can the Vox mount to a Surefire muzzle device?
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    The Vox definitely looks interesting. I’m a little confused about the mounting it though. I haven’t been able to find adapters for the different popular mounts (key mo, ASR, plan b, etc). These are possibly stupid questions but I have very little suppressor experience. Does the Vox mount to all of these by default? Can the Vox mount to a Surefire muzzle device?
    The Vox uses a 1.375x24 mount-to-silencer thread (Originally the Omega pattern) which has become the industry standard for interchangeable mounts in this class of cans. You can unscrew the direct thread mount that it comes with and install a DA Key-MO (P/N: DA428), a SiCo ASR Bravo, a Q Plan-B or any other number of mounts to adapt to your choice of compatible muzzle devices.

    Unfortunately there is no adapter at present for mounting to Surefire muzzle devices. They have the IP locked up pretty tight so it is not possible for 3rd parties to make compatible mounts for other cans and there doesn't appear to be any interest from Surefire to make a mount adaptable to other silencers. I guess if someone is going to use Surefire muzzle devices that is going to limit them to only Surefire cans.



    Karl Edminster
    Energetic Armament LLC

    https://energeticarms.com/

  10. #30
    Thank you Karl.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

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