Post-HB961 Suppressor Quest

[Mike C]

@kedminster, is there enough interest for a pistol caliber can or a do all, pistol/rifle solution from Energetic that you all might consider producing something along those lines? If so what are the chances it would be plan B compatible? I am looking at the plan B very hard as it will work with every can I own minus the Rugged Micro 30. I am looking more at the Vox now as a possible replacement for my current cans because of this thread and one other on this board. The versatility of mounting options and bomb proof material section is pretty incredible. The wipes are icing on the cake. Seriously, not going to lie it would be freaking amazing to have 2-3 cans instead of 6 that can run the gamut and use the exact same mounting solution across the board. My OCD thanks you.

[kedminster]

So yield strength, doesn’t amount to much in this discussion. That’s the ‘big’ selling point of the Vox. It’s information, that to my pea-sized-brain doesn’t amount to anything other than very questionable marketing.

This is a different alloy than has been used before. They’ve done some interesting things. I want to like what they’ve done. They overlook that some of us don’t want to have a product ‘sold’ by repeated statements that don’t, by themselves, have much to do with what matters in this application.

Hi Dan, I realized I may have not fully responded to your question/concerns and wanted to specifically address why tensile yield strength is important.

Immediately after the 'uncorking event' of the bullet leaving the barrel the internal volume of the silencer is subjected to a transient high pressure pulse. The walls of the silencer have to contain this pressure without plastic deformation (yield). Hoop stress is the stress induced in the diameter of the tube and longitudinal stress happens from force applied by the gasses acting on the baffles and mount. We engineer a silencer (pressure vessel) to resist these stresses with 2 things: The tensile strength of the material and the amount (cross section) of material. There is a direct linear relationship between those 2 items. For a given force, if tensile strength goes up then the amount of material necessary goes down. In the case of silencers using higher tensile strength material means we can have thinner walls and enjoy all the benefits that come with this: Lower weight, better heat transfer (less delta T across the wall) and higher internal volume. It is also critical to have a material that maintains appropriate tensile strength at elevated temperature for hard use silencer designs and C300 offers this.

As taken from the Metallic Materials Properties Development and Standardization (MMPDS):

Yield Strength, room temp:

Aged C300 - 280ksi

17-4 H900 - 190ksi

Inconel 718- 150ksi

Cobalt 6B (Stellite)- 154ksi

This means that for a given stress level, we need 1.47x as much 17-4 or 1.86x as much Inconel 718 to build the same pressure vessel. This is a significant margin especially given very similar densities of materials.

Stellite is generally used only for baffles and not for the outer tubes as it is very expensive material and very hard to machine. In almost all silencer applications it is cast rather than machined.

Hope this helps clarify why our engineering analysis led us to use C300 and provides some reference to our statements about the material and it's qualifications as a material for suppressor applications.

[Dan_S]

@LittleLebowski

My issue has been the fact tha claims are made about it that sound like snake oil, and then when I raise valid concerns, the best response has been ‘it’s awesome’. In an industry full of false claims, or at least highly misleading information, my lack of trust for people I don’t know doesn’t seem unwarranted.

The abrasion issue is why Titanium is generally not highly regarded for baffles subjected to high intensity firing schedules. At elevated temperature, it doesn’t withstand the ‘sandblasting’ as well as some other materials. Hence my point that yield strength, by itself, isn’t the sole measure of a metals value in a given application. 17-4 stainless withstands the hot gases and powder residues better than the ‘stronger’ titanium, and therefore has been given the nod over titanium by the industry in general.




@kedminster

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to reply here, as you have.

Can you share anything from testing for blast (or other) baffle erosion after any particular firing schedule (such as the SURG testing requirements)?

[kedminster]

@kedminster, is there enough interest for a pistol caliber can or a do all, pistol/rifle solution from Energetic that you all might consider producing something along those lines? If so what are the chances it would be plan B compatible? I am looking at the plan B very hard as it will work with every can I own minus the Rugged Micro 30. I am looking more at the Vox now as a possible replacement for my current cans because of this thread and one other on this board. The versatility of mounting options and bomb proof material section is pretty incredible. The wipes are icing on the cake. Seriously, not going to lie it would be freaking amazing to have 2-3 cans instead of 6 that can run the gamut and use the exact same mounting solution across the board. My OCD thanks you.

Hi Mike! Yes, we do have several other silencers currently in development... I can't share details yet but lets just say we have very similar interests

I definitely think the 'universal' 1.375x24 mount is a great way to go to allow shooters to choose their own mounting system and keep it consistent across multiple host weapons and cans. People really liked that we led that trend with the Vox and many other manufacturers have since adopted the same philosophy which is think is a good benefit for the silencer community.

BYOM (Bring your own mount) is a winner. Being locked into anything proprietary and exclusive sucks. People like options and flexibility!

[kedminster]

@kedminster

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to reply here. Can you clarify why the ‘yield’ strength of the C300 seems to be the primary marketing focus? It would seem to me, as I’ve said several times in this thread, that that particular information isn’t the primary concern in terms of the longevity of the baffles, or the tube, given that what is used as comparative material have proven themselves more than adequate for both applications.


I would be much interested in the results of a couple cans subjected to the SOCOM/SURG firing cycle, and then evaluated for blast baffle erosion. That would be more understandable for me, at least.


-edit- you beat me to it. Thanks![/QUOTE]

Dan: Glad you saw my response about why tensile strength matters; we must have both been thinking the same thing at the same time!

We have done a fair bit of erosion testing but have not formally adhered to the SOCOM/SURG firing cycle. I am a big fan of standards and their usefulness in comparing data so I am 110% with you on this one. We have cans out being evaluated by a gov't entity but I don't know when I will have that data back. Ideally I would like to find a (commercial) neutral 3rd party to conduct the SOCOM/SURG firing cycle tests and subsequent baffle evaluation rather than us do it. Just adds another layer of validity that way. Let me see who I can track down.

We do cover erosion as part of our lifetime guarantee. With our patent pending serial ID ring it is really simple and fast for us to re-core a Vox back to factory original.

[Mike C]

@kedminster, thank you again for chiming in here. Great to have you on the board, it's awesome to hear things directly from the source. I am stoked you guys are moving in the direction you are. I think I will just hang tight and see what works its way out from your shops. I am looking forward to sending money in your direction and simplify things a bit logistically over here. Thanks again.

[Dan_S]

@kedminster

Truly grateful for your willingness to address my concerns directly in your replies here. That you’ve taken the time to address my questions directly is more than I expected.

Once you would find a source to do the testing, is that information that could/would be made available for mere mortals such as myself? 😁

[LittleLebowski]

And now people see why I bought two Energetic cans

[kedminster]

@kedminster

Truly grateful for your willingness to address my concerns directly in your replies here. That you’ve taken the time to address my questions directly is more than I expected.

Once you would find a source to do the testing, is that information that could/would be made available for mere mortals such as myself? 😁

My pleasure! We are a bunch of engineering nerds who are truly passionate about silencers and geek out about everything that does into them...material science, manufacturing, thermodynamics/heat transfer, etc. I am just excited when other people are actually interested to hear us geek out about these things

I will absolutely post any data/results we collect for any testing for public review. Transparency build trust. Data wants to be free. You guys are the most important people to have access to information so you can make informed decisions on what equipment you purchase and forums like this should be a FANTASTIC resource for that info. As you can tell from my previous posts my engineering approach to life extends to discussions and debates and I like to backup my points/claims with math, data and charts. That stuff is real to me and I think resonates with a lot of other folks too. Well, maybe except my wife I still lose arguments with her no matter how much math I try to apply to the situation

[kedminster]

@kedminster, thank you again for chiming in here. Great to have you on the board, it's awesome to hear things directly from the source. I am stoked you guys are moving in the direction you are. I think I will just hang tight and see what works its way out from your shops. I am looking forward to sending money in your direction and simplify things a bit logistically over here. Thanks again.

Thanks for being part of the discussion! And a huge shout out and thank you to @LittleLebowski for the original post and tag that started this discussion. Definitely tag me anytime there are any questions. I will try to get on the forum more often.