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Thread: USPSA Division Equipment Rules (Guns)

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    what's driving the move away from Production for you guys? What about it attracted you in the beginning and what is now leading you away from it?
    What attracted me to Production was its relatively low barrier to entry. Just about any duty sized handgun is more than good enough to make GM with if your skills are up to it. I started with a CZ 75, a kydex pancake, Wilderness belt, and four clip-on kydex mag pouches. Placed mid-field (out of typically 40 - 60 competitors) right from the get go. Eventually bought a full belt rig and transitioned to a CZ P-09 which for me has much better ergos and shoots much flatter. The allowable modification are for the most part relatively easy and cheap, at least the ones that gain you the most capability for the $. You can go full retard now changing all the internals, but the advantage that provides is really marginal.

    What drove me away was the fact that Carry Optics provides a relatively affordable option with a sighting system that doesn't handicap me (I'm 53 and have had presbyopia for about 10 years) against people with younger, better eyes. I'll put my movement skills against most and I can improve them at relatively low risk and cost, but there's nothing I can do to fix my eyes' lack of accommodation that isn't surgically invasive and expensive.

  2. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    Why do wish you quit it sooner?
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    what's driving the move away from Production for you guys? What about it attracted you in the beginning and what is now leading you away from it?
    Ease of entry into the division, relative competitiveness of my carry gun (I made a B class with P30 LEM then), and perceived benefit of extra challenge associated with low cap were my reasons to get into the USPSA via the Production, Rob.

    Low capacity (combined with non-competitiveness of minor pf in the Limited) is my main reason to have left. People speak of low cap as an extra mental challenge, as if we're playing chess here. We're not. You're simply anchored to reloading after each target array, and sometimes after shooting just a couple of targets. The worst part is that it affects other aspects of the game that I don't get to try and execute during matches with the aggression of an unimpeded movement. Can I occasionally arrive to the next array as fast while doing a reload as without? Yes, but it is an exception for me, and many others. It is not theoretical, I can show it in match placements in comparison to my local A/M shooters who shoot both Prod and CO. I shot a class with Stoeger, his stage plan was less aggressive in some ways than mine just because there was no point for him to shoot on the move [that he could have easily executed] and then find himself at the next shooting position without having done a reload. I am not a good mover, I am not a good reloader, low cap disrupts my flow too much, hi cap allows me to push and work on movement and aggression. I'll never go back to Production as long as it is low cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post

    Do you think the nice toys are required? I shot limited a long time back and had a Brazos gun. It was about 3K back then which I thought was ridiculous. Now they are probably 5K. I was looking at it again recently and thinking if I did it again it would be with a CZ or probably the DWX. People seem to be able to do OK with the Tanfo's and they aren't that expensive.
    I don't know if they are required but my personal observation is that most people around me who have started with the TSOs have migrated to 2011 anyway. Not because triggers, because guns' behavior under major pf conditions, both shooting and breakages. I won't use the Tanfo. I had two that I spent four digit numbers on just making them run, unsuccessfully, during my Production years. The brand is dead to me. Cheaper option of STI is dead too, now that they are voiding their warranty if you put a steel grip on. Seems like 4 grand Atlas is sort of default baseline choice these days.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  3. #133
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    What attracted me to Production was its relatively low barrier to entry. Just about any duty sized handgun is more than good enough to make GM with if your skills are up to it. I started with a CZ 75, a kydex pancake, Wilderness belt, and four clip-on kydex mag pouches. Placed mid-field (out of typically 40 - 60 competitors) right from the get go. Eventually bought a full belt rig and transitioned to a CZ P-09 which for me has much better ergos and shoots much flatter. The allowable modification are for the most part relatively easy and cheap, at least the ones that gain you the most capability for the $. You can go full retard now changing all the internals, but the advantage that provides is really marginal.

    What drove me away was the fact that Carry Optics provides a relatively affordable option with a sighting system that doesn't handicap me (I'm 53 and have had presbyopia for about 10 years) against people with younger, better eyes. I'll put my movement skills against most and I can improve them at relatively low risk and cost, but there's nothing I can do to fix my eyes' lack of accommodation that isn't surgically invasive and expensive.
    I think that is a big driver, especially on the IDPA side. On the USPSA side: 1) I almost never see anyone my age or older shooting; 2) If so they almost inevitably are shooting CO, along with anyone apparently over 30; 3) I specifically bought my pistol with the view I might be doing the same in the next 12 - 24 months; and 4) it seems many use CO as a baby Open category.

    If anything we need a Production:CO category.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    I think that is a big driver, especially on the IDPA side. On the USPSA side: 1) I almost never see anyone my age or older shooting; 2) If so they almost inevitably are shooting CO, along with anyone apparently over 30; 3) I specifically bought my pistol with the view I might be doing the same in the next 12 - 24 months; and 4) it seems many use CO as a baby Open category.

    If anything we need a Production:CO category.
    Carry Optics in the USA IS production with an optic, with the exception of the magazines. In the rest of the world (IPSC) it's called Production Optics because that's precisely what it is.

  5. #135
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    USPSA Division Equipment Rules (Guns)

    It's great that this thread is moving toward less criticizing of divisions, and more focus on what makes each challenging and unique.

    I like shooting iron sights. My vision has remained remarkably good as I've aged, and I intend to take full advantage of that.

    I like minor PF scoring. It's what I'm used to, and I like the challenges it presents. Major is just different, and has other challenges.

    I like limited ammo because of the requirements of explosive speed, high risk, and the stress it imposes on me. High cap is fun as well because of the continuous aggressive movement it enables, so I enjoy shooting CO occasionally.

    It's also really interesting to compare stage plans and outcomes across divisions, so I like squadding with shooters of a range of divisions.

    “Good” stage design makes all the difference.

    Bottom line: USPSA is awesome. Best game ever.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 02-21-2020 at 11:18 AM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Carry Optics in the USA IS production with an optic, with the exception of the magazines. In the rest of the world (IPSC) it's called Production Optics because that's precisely what it is.
    "with the exception of the magazines" is the part I am talking about.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    "with the exception of the magazines" is the part I am talking about.
    OK, I get it now. But that's still a pretty low barrier. CZ P-09/P-10F are 19 rounds stock, 21 rounds with a $10 OEM extended base pad, and 22 - 23 with a slightly pricier ($35 or so) aftermarket baseplate plus a $20 Grams follower/spring. Seems like a lot until you realize that two extended mags and two stock 19 rounders will see you through any stage you can think of.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    OK, I get it now. But that's still a pretty low barrier. CZ P-09/P-10F are 19 rounds stock, 21 rounds with a $10 OEM extended base pad, and 22 - 23 with a slightly pricier ($35 or so) aftermarket baseplate plus a $20 Grams follower/spring. Seems like a lot until you realize that two extended mags and two stock 19 rounders will see you through any stage you can think of.
    Yes, I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    It's great that this thread is moving toward less criticizing of divisions, and more focus on what makes each challenging and unique.

    I like shooting iron sights. My vision has remained remarkably good as I've aged, and I intend to take full advantage of that.

    I like minor PF scoring. It's what I'm used to, and I like the challenges it presents. Major is just different, and has other challenges.

    I like limited ammo because of the requirements of explosive speed, high risk, and the stress it imposes on me. High cap is fun as well because of the continuous aggressive movement it enables, so I enjoy shooting CO occasionally.

    It's also really interesting to compare stage plans and outcomes across divisions, so I like squadding with shooters of a range of divisions.

    “Good” stage design makes all the difference.

    Bottom line: USPSA is awesome. Best game ever.

    I think USPSA is by far the best game.

    A lot of the reasons you enjoy production are why I enjoy single stack division. I actually shot both for the longest time and was even getting into carry optics, but my time for shooting has grown lesser because life gets in the way and I've been hooked on BJJ for a while and trying to pick up overtime, so I decided to drop down to just shooting one division and this coming season I won't be shooting any other sport but USPSA.

    What I like about single stack is that I can still shoot a minor division with 10 rounds and see how I do against the production guys when I have to focus more on shooting all A's while still being mindful of reloads. I love production, but I also love shooting my cheat codes gun (aka a full sized 9mm 1911) so this allows me to do just that. Plus, I don't always have a bunch of ammo on hand for the .45, but I always have 9mm around.

    The Major portion of single stack is pretty fun too, although the capacity and the major PF are somewhat oxymoronic. As a more accuracy focused shooter I find it challenging because it rewards me actually going faster, but because of the capacity, you'll never truly take full advantage of the speed major allows you because of all the damned reloads. Also because of the capacity I have to know I'm hitting correctly and never make up shots, which has made me really focus on developing speed and efficiency, but also the ability to call my shots. It does allow me a bit more leeway on partials though, and the big honking magwell makes it easy to get a mag in the gun.

    So long as my eyes are good (and they are, because I'm just under 30) I'll probably shoot an iron sighted divison.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    So long as my eyes are good (and they are, because I'm just under 30) I'll probably shoot an iron sighted divison.
    Would you be interested in a tuned 627 and a nice belt rig to go with it?

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