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Thread: Jim Higginbotham on Shooting Center Mass...

  1. #61
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    I knew what you meant. That's why I continued on....


    pat

  2. #62
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    I used to talk to Pat about every week or so. He was especially helpful when I was getting sued for my 1983 excessive force case. It helped that we were fellow "donkeys". Growing up Irish is a thing. He died within a month of my FIL, who was a Navy vet, 29 year deputy, Vietnam sailor, who did tons of interesting shit, and was a great dude. The year both of them died was tough for me. It was like all of the good guys I trusted died from heart attacks.

  3. #63
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    Dave Spaulding uses an 8.5x11 sheet of paper with spine and heart and lungs printed on it.
    I just did Dave's excellent Combative Pistol class and his A-zone is a 9" tall and 6" wide. It is an all or nothing arrangement with hits to the boxing counting full value and any thing out of it, scoring zero.

    My default hit zone is 8.5" tall and 5.5" wide. You get this by folding a piece of letter paper in half. This fits perfectly between the xyphoid process and suprasternal notch of the typical adult. The rectangular shape emphasizes the fact that the important stuff lies closely along the mid-line and diminishes quickly as you move away. I like to print that on an 8.5x11" paper with a 2" spine running up the middle. I want to see everything in the 8.5x5.5" box but slopping out into the full paper is a sign you need to shoot better. Per Chief Weems, a 4x6" box to offer further refinement isn't wasted. I'd also point out that all of these zones assume a direct, frontal shot. Learning how to solve 3-D shooting problems is an important but neglected skill set.

    Name:  ideal_hit_zone.jpg
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    Since this started with Jim, I'd point out that he has a ton of students that helped shape and validate what he teaches. He is one of those people that believes hits to the spine are your best hope of a neutralizing chest shot. If you fire a "burst" of rounds with the goal of hitting the spine, you'll hit good stuff along the way. You don't have to breach the spinal column to dump someone on their butt. If you think about the dynamics of taking 2-4 rounds to the high chest, one of which clips the spinal column and dumps you unprepared to fall on the ground that is about as hard as you can hit someone without a head shot. After a lot of refinement this is the target that Jim's developed for his program. The A zone is small and heavily rewards the hits to the spine. The A zone is 8" tall and 6" wide. The corners are trimmed to its approximately 46 sq inches.
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    I prefer to figure out how many square inches the zone we're discussing is. For instance an 8" circle is just over 50 sq inches. The USPSA A zone is 66 sq inches. The black of a bullseye is ~21 sq inches. I think that a chest zone above 54 sq in reflects the desire to fool oneself. (I use 54 as Spauldings target is 9X6 inches and still pretty good.) Even the 8" circle includes a lot of non-vital anatomy at the edges of its right and left sides. If you want to weep, figure out the square inches in common LE training targets like the B-27, Transtar, or TQ-21.
    Last edited by John Hearne; 02-22-2020 at 10:26 PM.
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
    • If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
    • "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG

  4. #64
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    I refer to this as the 3 opponents problem. There are three kinds of adversaries we need to worry about:

    1) Some just want to see your gun. They weren't looking for a fight and as soon as a victimization turns into a fight, they bail.
    2) Some just want to know your gun works. They aren't intimidated by the mere presence of a gun. But, as soon as it obvious you're willing to use it, they remember an outstanding appointment that requires their presence elsewhere.
    3) A small number are hard core and care more about making their point than living - they are the dedicated opponent. Think Michael Platt or Jack Twining. They have no problems getting shot once they've decided you stand between them and what they want.

    If you plan to fight the third type, you will automatically be able to handle type 1 &2. If you only plan to handle type 1, you will be in for a rude surprise if you encounter type 1 or 2.

    When it comes to hits with long guns, I'm not sure the long gun matters much with type 3. A dedicated opponent is likely to require the same degree of precision whether they are being shot with a handgun or long gun. The likely exception is buckshot because that is a completely different equation.
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
    • If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
    • "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG

  5. #65
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    John-
    Is the second target in your post (the one with A, B, and C zones labeled) available commercially?
    That looks like a great training target.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    I just did Dave's excellent Combative Pistol class and his A-zone is a 9" tall and 6" wide. It is an all or nothing arrangement with hits to the boxing counting full value and any thing out of it, scoring zero.

    My default hit zone is 8.5" tall and 5.5" wide. You get this by folding a piece of letter paper in half. This fits perfectly between the xyphoid process and suprasternal notch of the typical adult. The rectangular shape emphasizes the fact that the important stuff lies closely along the mid-line and diminishes quickly as you move away. I like to print that on an 8.5x11" paper with a 2" spine running up the middle. I want to see everything in the 8.5x5.5" box but slopping out into the full paper is a sign you need to shoot better. Per Chief Weems, a 4x6" box to offer further refinement isn't wasted. I'd also point out that all of these zones assume a direct, frontal shot. Learning how to solve 3-D shooting problems is an important but neglected skill set.

    Name:  ideal_hit_zone.jpg
Views: 756
Size:  15.6 KB

    Since this started with Jim, I'd point out that he has a ton of students that helped shape and validate what he teaches. He is one of those people that believes hits to the spine are your best hope of a neutralizing chest shot. If you fire a "burst" of rounds with the goal of hitting the spine, you'll hit good stuff along the way. You don't have to breach the spinal column to dump someone on their butt. If you think about the dynamics of taking 2-4 rounds to the high chest, one of which clips the spinal column and dumps you unprepared to fall on the ground that is about as hard as you can hit someone without a head shot. After a lot of refinement this is the target that Jim's developed for his program. The A zone is small and heavily rewards the hits to the spine. The A zone is 8" tall and 6" wide. The corners are trimmed to its approximately 46 sq inches.
    Name:  riposte-3_L.jpg
Views: 739
Size:  39.3 KB

    I prefer to figure out how many square inches the zone we're discussing is. For instance an 8" circle is just over 50 sq inches. The USPSA A zone is 66 sq inches. The black of a bullseye is ~21 sq inches. I think that a chest zone above 54 sq in reflects the desire to fool oneself. (I use 54 as Spauldings target is 9X6 inches and still pretty good.) Even the 8" circle includes a lot of non-vital anatomy at the edges of its right and left sides. If you want to weep, figure out the square inches in common LE training targets like the B-27, Transtar, or TQ-21.

  6. #66
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    John-
    Is the second target in your post (the one with A, B, and C zones labeled) available commercially?
    That looks like a great training target.
    https://shop.actiontarget.com/mobile...ard-target.asp
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
    • If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
    • "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG

  7. #67
    Jim Higginbotham is a gentleman of the first order. He is also an amazingly gifted and accomplished shooter. I deeply regret not being able to attend a class he taught in my area. I would very much like the opportunity to train with him.

    Since we are on the discussion of targets, these are free to download:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ng-Center-Mass

    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  8. #68
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    I've got @jlw's target on a thumb drive and have FedEx print some off when I run low. They're about .20 apiece. I need to see if they have paper about the same color as masking tape so the patches aren't so obvious.

    I remember being on an early IDPA listserv and Higginbotham was a contributor. His contributions were always polite and well thought out.

  9. #69
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Vertical 3x5 card for the chest, horizontal 3x5 card for the head--everything else is a miss; targeting problem solved.....
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    I've got @jlw's target on a thumb drive and have FedEx print some off when I run low. They're about .20 apiece. I need to see if they have paper about the same color as masking tape so the patches aren't so obvious.

    I remember being on an early IDPA listserv and Higginbotham was a contributor. His contributions were always polite and well thought out.
    If you get a business purchase card with Office Depot/Max, you can drop the price of those copies considerably.

    These labels make good pasters:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

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