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Thread: Super Fun Time Thread - You do your pursuits, I'll do mine

  1. #11
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    Oh, in debating with me, don't worry about hurting my feelings. Call me an idiot, but back it up with facts. I wasn't issued feelings with my Speed-six and speedloaders. Debate about these kinds of things is healthy and as police, we need to hash this stuff out amongst ourselves before some legislators or lawyers decide they need to regulate us without any relevant knowledge.

  2. #12
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    Locally Air Support and Starchase units have changed a lot of thinking on pursuits.

    My agency, violent felonies only. Contiguous agency: Supposed to be violent felonies only, supervisors have a lot of leeway on what they authorize. County and State: Chase 'em till the wheels fall off.

    My agency is pretty small (45 sworn 28 on patrol, minimum staffing 4 per shift). Contiguous agency has dozens on duty at a time, and can frequently get spike belts out in front. They just bought a new helicopter, since the old one was not suited for High Altitude/High Temps. The new one should be up a lot more than the old one.

    Starchase started with the Sheriff's dept here, and the city latched on pretty quick. It allows more recoveries of stolens, particularly those that are used in other crimes. It does not allow for more arrests. Air support and Canine are what catch foot chases after they run from a car.

    I don't mind our policy of violent felonies only, but it means we don't get a lot of practice at pursuits. Still in our last chase (which I have been meaning to write up in roll call stories now that IA is done with us) we held our own pretty good on a tweeker in a stolen, committing burglaries, and shooting at my Sgt. when he tried to stop them.

    I think, but cannot confirm that the reason that the City here has softened their pursuit policy is our national ranking on violent crime, car thefts, and how many of those are done violently. They are chasing more, and catching more.

    PIT is lethal force if done over 35 mph, and I have known of a couple of cases where it has been used as lethal force.

    Just two weeks ago the SO started a chase near my house at with a car going 100 mph in the wrong lanes. Reason given for the chase was suspect was already driving recklessly, and needed to be stopped. Suspect wrecked out into a woman on her way to work (0300, little/no traffic, Supervisors involved) Suspect and his two passnegers were ejected, two died on scene and one was essentially alive for organ donation a week later. Woman they hit was not seriously hurt.

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 02-14-2020 at 01:57 AM.

  3. #13
    Depressed DINK TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    Not the level of mature, professional discussion I expected here.
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Frankly, neither is calling another user's pursuit a "software problem" knowing jack-diddly-shit about it other than, perhaps, it's against policies half a continent away. Starting something like that gets you what it gets you, and it's been pretty mild.
    Bingo. To take inspiration from the colloquialism thread:

    "Don't fling poo if you don't like poo being flung back."

    "He who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

    "Check yourself before you wreck yourself".
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    There are no accurate stats, but an article I read a few years ago estimated that 300-400 INNOCENT motorists were killed, per year, as a result of police pursuits. We have about 15-20 really bad, possibly criminal shoots per year as police in the 1000-1100 people that the police kill every year with firearms. Chasing for property crimes cannot be justified, in my opinion. The risk to the public and the officers involved is not warranted, given the state of the industry. With LPRs, DNA and other tools we now have available to us, it is not conscionable to chase for these crimes.
    What were max speeds in my pursuit?
    What were traffic conditions?
    What was the total length of the pursuit?
    What type of roadway was it on?

    What were the speeds when the PIT was performed?
    What were traffic conditions?
    How was the suspect driving?

    How did police come to know about this specific car at this specific location?

    Get my point? You don't know if we were doing 130 on the highway at rush hour or 35 around empty alleyways or something in the middle. You don't know if he was weaving through traffic or stopping at intersections and and using turn signals. You don't even know anything that I decided wasn't for public consumption because the pursuit was just an example fresh in mind of drawing as getting out of a vehicle.

    If your policies and personal ethics don't allow for "property crime" pursuits under any conditions fine. You do you. Again, you weren't there and have jack-diddly shit idea of what the danger factors were or what decisions I used to decide, as the supervisor not as the second car, to allow it continue. And now it's "not conscionable" despite you having none of those facts? You're being being both arrogant and condescending.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    Split from the holster angle thread for this sidebar - BehindBlueI's


    It's not like the crook is going to get any serious time, repent his evil ways, stop stealing cars and clean up his life because of this arrest.
    Eventually, you get what my former agency got.

    https://www.wsfa.com/video/2019/08/1...ursuit-policy/

    I worked there in the late 90s and then we couldn't chase for pretty much any reason. Word got out pretty quick among the criminal sector and soon, nobody was stopping for the blue lights. Nobody. Even little old ladies were refusing to yield for simple traffic infractions.

    Naturally, crime exploded. When I worked there, we did this thing where we wouldn't even write up misdemeanor crimes on a state case report unless it was domestic in nature. I'm sure that was to make crime stats look as good as we could. According to this linked report, they are changing back to enforcing laws.

    If you don't enforce laws, crooks are FOR SURE not going to get serious time, repent, or turn their lives around.

    Each agency has their respective SOPs to follow. Let that be your guide. Train your officers in techniques to make it as safe as possible, review dash cam footage to isolate mistakes, and learn from those as you drive on.

    Regards.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    I didn't "fling poo" nor did I suggest that training was playing. I did point out that the given reasons for not considering something were not in line with current best practices. Even though I retired back in the fall, I'm back to working a few days a month in a uniformed, sworn position. If you're interested in my thought process for patrol work, pm me an email address & I'll send you the research paper I wrote on vehicle stops and the published article that came from it.

    Others, including paherne, got into the pursuit area. As much as I believe crooks need to be caught & booked, the public has a very different risk/benefit equation on pursuits. So do agency heads. There are a whole bunch of things that go into the continue/terminate equation. As a patrol sergeant, I let ones continue that some might terminate, I terminated ones that others would let go, and I had to address subordinates actions after the pursuit reviews. I've also been directly involved in three fatal pursuits - the first as the #2 car and the last two as the primary (they were within the last 5 years). Two months before my retirement, my patrol shift had four critical incidents - two OISs and two In-Custody deaths - in less than 30 days so it wasn't like we were slow.

    Experience can and does influence perspectives. What we could do in the 90s is very different from what we can do now. While, as a profession, we are much better at explaining our actions, there are things we can't explain easily, if at all. If anything, I became far more cautious about when I was willing to risk my people's well being - all of it.

    The L/E area has taken an interesting turn of late and it isn't from those who were never in the profession. I first noticed this when a female officer, who trains on the national level, was castigated for offering her perspective on the behavior of female officers.

  7. #17
    Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    The L/E area has taken an interesting turn of late and it isn't from those who were never in the profession. I first noticed this when a female officer, who trains on the national level, was castigated for offering her perspective on the behavior of female officers.

    That's a mischaracterization, but we can hash it out by PM.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 02-14-2020 at 01:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    Setting a perimeter, calling in a fur missile and getting air assets leads to catching bad guys in a safer manner for us and the public.
    I donít think there has been an air asset in my state in 20 years. There are neighboring agencies with K9ís though.
    That being said, we basically only pursue for violent felonies.

  9. #19
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    I'm mil not LE, so I am speaking out of my lane here:

    But what happened to blaming the criminal for the bad results of the criminal's actions?
    Bad things that happen because a criminal would not follow lawful commands from LE to pull over and stop their vehicle sounds like the *criminal's* fault to me - not the PD's fault for doing their job of catching criminals.

    The Police have a societal and oathbound obligation to catch criminals. Blaming them for bad outcomes caused by criminals is so head-up-ass backwards thinking that I simply don't understand it.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    I'm mil not LE, so I am speaking out of my lane here:

    But what happened to blaming the criminal for the bad results of the criminal's actions?
    Bad things that happen because a criminal would not follow lawful commands from LE to pull over and stop their vehicle sounds like the *criminal's* fault to me - not the PD's fault for doing their job of catching criminals.

    The Police have a societal and oathbound obligation to catch criminals. Blaming them for bad outcomes caused by criminals is so head-up-ass backwards thinking that I simply don't understand it.
    This summarizes my thinking. LE should not be on the hook because of actions in the public interest to detain a fleeing person; that is on the person who initiates the chase by fleeing. I also would add, as a taxpayer, that areas that are known to be aggressive in stopping criminal behavior have much less criminal behavior than those who are more lax. I live in and prefer the former.

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