Duty Holsters - positioning, angle, heights, retention

[jd950]

Perhaps I am oversimplifying this or just confused, but it would seem a firearm with a less angled grip (Sig, 1911, etc.) would require less of a muzzle-forward cant that a Glock to obtain the same benefits during draw, does that make sense?

And I agree with others who have pointed out that one has to be cognizant of gun access in the vehicle and interference ith entering and exiting a car and other activities before getting too radical with the gun angle.

Still, I do not like the angle of the stock Safariland holsters.

[jlw]

So, let's talk about holster cant....

[Erick Gelhaus]

So, let's talk about holster cant....

That's why I posted this.

I guess I'll have an in-depth discussion with a handful of practitioners over containers of distilled spirits at TacCon.

[El Cid]

Great post Erick! I did exactly that a couple years ago. Used the G-code system with my ALS holsters. It’s noticeably faster for me.

[El Cid]

I can reach a holster worn at 2-3 O'clock with my other hand.

He can’t reach it there.

[UNM1136]

While I can reach a holster at 3:00 with my support hand, like I pointed out earlier, it is significantly easier to yank the gun further in front of me before doing so.

I remember Pat Rogers used to teach the same with thigh holsters.

pat

[Erick Gelhaus]

In trying to figure out what happened in this thread, I re-read the posts.

a) you don't have to try it, let alone do it. No one is forcing you to;
b) see above;

The brackets are supposed to be delivered sometime after 2/21. I'll be using them in a three-day class during the first week of March. If there is any interest in how they work, please PM me and I'll forward whatever I write up.

[taadski]

In trying to figure out what happened in this thread, I re-read the posts.

a) you don't have to try it, let alone do it. No one is forcing you to;
b) see above;

The brackets are supposed to be delivered sometime after 2/21. I'll be using them in a three-day class during the first week of March. If there is any interest in how they work, please PM me and I'll forward whatever I write up.

I don’t think I’m alone in hoping you’ll share the info here. It’s really good stuff.

FWIW, I’ve dabbled pretty extensively with my duty (and gaming) rigs via modifying my UBLs. I’ve found that I’ve been able to go as far as getting my 6360 vertical or thereabouts without creating clearance problems in *my* patrol rig. Much more negative rake than that caused some of the above mentioned issues though. We drive Tahoes, so that’s a significant factor also.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

[jd950]

Just speaking for myself, of course, but I find the topic interesting and the information useful. I am sorry it kind of went off the rails. I see potential practical issues with a holster cant that puts the muzzle very far forward for real world use, but would enjoy discussing it and reading about it further, so I hope the thread continues and people post more experiences with this. I would hope the discussion does not just go to PMs and other personal discussions but remains public.

[Dagga Boy]

A few things to preface this: I started in the police equipment business before I was a cop and owned my own police equipment store. I was lucky to have had relationships with many holster makers and Safariland was based in my city.

I started shooting police action shooting matches and doing training while still a college student. I had no practical experience and was looking at things from a purely academic and technical aspect. I first started using a Hoyt breakfront with the longest drop and the most aggressive muzzle forward cant available. It was as close to a completion holster in basketweave as you could get and lighting fast because the handgun was fully gripped with a locked wrist as part of the draw process. I believe the locked wrist is absolutely essential and went totally against holster designs of the day. During my time. Working the police equipment business (which was a major player in San Diego) I had a ton of interface with Cops of every variety and military special operations who were looking to law enforcement for a lot of the new counter terrorism mission. During this period a lot of officers were being shot with their own guns to epidemic proportions. Bill Rogers designed the SS III holster to counter this. Previous designs were mainly designed to counter a rear take away, but this is not how guns were being taken from officers and used against them.
I began to demo the Rogers Holster at my place of work to show how fast they actually were if some training time was devoted to them. We had multiple saves of officers lives in San Diego with the original Rogers SS III that later became the Safariland 070. These cases involved officers being beaten into unconsciousness and the multiple assailants could not get their duty weapon out of the holster. In one case they were pulling so hard the officers keepers around the holster were broken. The myth of “I’ll never let anyone get to my gun” gets fairy tale status pretty quick when beaten to unconsciousness.
When I got to the academy I used an SSIII and convinced all the trainees from my agency to also buy them out of pocket. I won the Combat Shoot, was by far the fastest in the academy from the holster shooting and was good enough to be the only recruit invited by the range staff and FBI instructor to shoot with them at lunch. I challenged the DT staff (that was supervised by an amazing and progressive instructor) to take my gun and nobody could. It got to the point where they had five recruits attempt to subdue me and take my gun and they failed. It convinced many of those not stuck on tradition.
I sold my Hoyt to one of my academy FTO’s who lateraled to my agency when I graduated and he needed an N frame Hoyt. We carried .45 Colt Model 25-5’s. I used a 4” instead of the more popular 6’because the 070 was not made for the 6”. That officer with the Hoyt with the heavy forward cant used it to great effect in the only shooting I investigated that involved pure speed from the draw. He outdrew and dumped a murder suspect in a scene that was right out of a Hollywood western fast draw on the street movie. The speed of the dropped hard muzzle forward cant was the optimal solution. I sold the holster to him because it’s draw was totally backwards from the Safariland 070.
The 070 was great because it forced the wrist to lock, a correct high grip, and the rearward draw stroke set the gun up in a straight up position. I enhanced my speed significantly by using a very large drop plate that Safariland made the moved the holster outboard and several inches of drop. Unlike the recommendations I saw from some trainers I used a lot of Belt Keepers. I had one on the front and back of the holster mounting plate to keep it as rigid as possible and to keep any other gear from interference with the firearm removal and did the same thing on the opposite side with magazine pouches. I used additional keepers to support the weight on my handcuffs at the rear. Having no belt movement is critical for speed and consistency.
When I was working on special details in the old days when we would wear a police windbreaker and jeans I had Gordon Davis build me a special rig with a deep dropped holster with no safety straps and open speed loader pouches. It was built for pure speed and access as we would be working violent felons from unmarked cars and those contacts were made with gun in hand or hand on the gun. The retention concerns were not as great because we were basically controlling our contacts and working with a partner. The muzzle forward cant allows a locked wrist and the gun is capable of a locked firing position from the second it clears the holster. I had a similar rig built many years later for a Glock 17.
I carried an 070 for most of my career. I used an ALS for a Glock my last years when I transitioned to a Glock 34 in Air Support and then a Glock 17 when I rotated back to Patrol till I was injured. I prefer an ALS without a hood or SLS these days, but I would have zero issues running a 070.