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Thread: Duty Holsters - positioning, angle, heights, retention

  1. #11
    I'm carrying an ALS muzzle forward on a G-Code belt slide with RTI wheel Erick. Love it. Quite fast. I like the hi ride though due to small modern cop cars.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I can reach a holster worn at 2-3 O'clock with my other hand.
    Concur. I'm a left-hander. Currently I have a TQ holder on the belt at 10-10:30 with the holster just behind it. I have no issue getting the TQ with either hand. Being able to attach the TQ holder to the front of the holster would allow me to the holster to the 10 o'clock position.

    I talked with @paherne a bit ago. As a left-hander, I'm not seeing the damage he has seen right-handers inflict on their equipment (holster, TQ holders, etc) via B pillars, car doors, center consoles, etc.

    I appreciate the discussion. Keep it going.

  3. #13
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Yeah, haven't felt the need as my belt (when I'm not plainclothes) has the TQ mounted at 2:30 directly in front of the holster, and badge in front of that. I could easily put a TQ more centerline if I wanted to move my holster forward, or just leave it out altogether since there's one with my SoTech IFAK worn small of back, as well as one on my vest.

    Wearing the holster at 3 O'clock seems more useable in reality to me. When I went through the basic pistol program at Quantico over a decade ago, the instructors at Weapons Training Battalion taught us to carry our M9 appendix OWB for the reasons discussed here. That was with a very minimal duty belt that you could slide the gun ever so slightly to the side when you sat down, though.

    I also don't like using the low-ride UBL attachment because it's completely obnoxious for anything but standing, and like discussed is harder to defend. High ride QLS fork mounted to the battle belt, FTW. No issues with armor interference as we're issued Velocity Systems' LPAAC, which has an awesome cut.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  4. #14
    Thanks, Erick!!

    For my first 10 years on the job, I carried in a Safariland 070. The one thing I loved about that holster was the angle that the pistol came out of the holster. In effect it was a muzzle forward draw.

    I'm excited to see this option for an SLS/ALS duty rig. I have ordered one of the plates.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  5. #15
    My first muzzle forward holster was a Milt Sparks for the 1911, I got in the early 90’s. I described a preference for a slight muzzle forward OWB position in this thread from 2018:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....draw-technique

    My 6390 for the RDS has been adjusted as muzzle forward as possible for a few years.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #16
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    I used a qls to get my 6280 for my 92A1 vertical. It does seem like muzzle forward would be even better.
    I don’t understand why Safariland has the muzzle rearward cant built into their duty holsters.

  7. #17
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    We need @Dagga Boy @Rex G to speak on their experiences.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    We have a number of cops with TQs placed on the holster for about a year now. It is a stupid idea. For a number of reasons, one: the TQ gets destroyed by getting in and out of a patrol car, going through doors quickly, etc. Two, if you get shot in your gun hand, how TF do you expect to get to your TQ with your off hand? Centerline body on an exterior vest is the best location, but many folks can't do this due to uniform regs or no desire to wear an outer vest carrier. Holster is the worst, other than not carrying a TQ.
    Probably a point to split the thread here but...

    Agree on centerline on external carrier being ideal for many, but external carriers likely won't happen here during my career. I think ideal would be horizontal centerline at the bottom edge. I am looking at doing that on my plate carrier.


    I have a bunch of guys carrying TQs in their vest plate pocket, which I disagree with, unless it is behind a hard plate. If you have to take a round you probably want it where you have the most armor. Putting TQ there makes it accessable to both hands, but it may not work as well if it takes a hit. What I do teach during Tac Med/TECC stuff is that if you can't reach your TQ with either hand, then carry one accessable to each hand, which I do. I have TQs at 5:00 and 7:00, and an SO Tech IFAK at 6:00, which keeps them out of the way, and makes them accessable to each hand. What I don't like about the setup is I would prefer to fight on my back instead of my belly, particulalrly if I am injured.,and on my back I am on my gear. I am toying with something similar to a cumberbun approach, and if I can't find decent, flat AR mag pouches with laser cut molle to wear between my belt and duty pouches, or maybe putting 10 speed AR mag pouches between my inner and outer belts, on the outer belt. A TQ at 1:00 and 11:00 behind my gear would rock if the pouch were thin enough, and possibly reduce the number of TQs I feel the need to carry. The new HSGI Tacos may be just the ticket, and they have taken care of the dangling shock cord.

    Another thought would be plastic or heavy duty kydex tab that would attach between the belt loop and the holster, carrying the TQ at 11:00 relative to the holster body, with the front edge of the holster to protect the TQ pouch, kinda like a reduced size version of shat the Tactical guys are doing with a TQ pouch on the front portion of a leg shroud for their holster.

    While I agree that the TQ on the holster will get banged around a bit a proper case on the holster should mitigate that. As it is, my TQs behind my hips get snagged out in the car every six weeks or so. No damage to the TQs or the carriers. So far TQ carriage has been "workable", not "good".

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 02-12-2020 at 10:42 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    All that's old is new again. A lot of the "speed" stuff got abandoned in favor of not getting murdered with your own pistol. We tend to forget that cops losing their guns used to be a real problem. It doesn't happen often anymore, which leads officers into thinking that it can't happen anymore.

    The foundation of weapons retention is "out of sight, out of mind". 2 O'clock is great for speed, but you're really advertising your shit. Low ride is great for speed but unless you have stupid long arms, you can't cover the pistol with you're elbow and it's just hanging out there.

    It's always a balancing act. I think the 070 is still the standard for weapons retention. It rides high and is easy to shield with the elbow, and it's very strong against front grabs when it's snapped. Besides being slow, it has a laundry list of it's own problems. The 070 was probably a step to far in one direction, but that decision didn't happen in a vacuum. There's a balancing act that needs to be done. The ALS/SLS was a pretty big step forward in retention, but that shouldn't be a replacement for some very hard learned lessons.
    I have always been a fan of retention training, particularly when tested with FoF. With a mid ride belt loop I have no issues between 2:00 and 3:00 covering my blaster with a forearm or elbow. I also have really long arms. With a standard interview position the pistol is back, but not all the way back. Some of the DT stuff I have been playing with lately courtesy of @SouthNarc and @Cecil Burch has emphasized straight hips for strength, vis bladed hips. There have been three gun grabs that I am aware of in my agency in the last 5-6 years, so it is something we discuss a a good bit between Firearms guys and DT guys.

    I agree that the 070 is the security standard, and was an issue holster for a long, long time, and most learned it very well indeed. I think retention is a balancing act between hardware and software, with neither being able to completely replace the other, and each significantly complimenting the other.

    pat

  10. #20
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    I'm curious how a muzzle-forward holster worn at ~ 0200 will interface with seatbelts, steering wheels, and all the other accoutrements in ever shrinking patrol cars.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
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