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Thread: Why P320 is so popular outside of pistol-forum

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaitcev View Post
    Having built a P320 from a bag of parts, I report that the lower FCU in the chassis is not too difficult. The only less then obvious part was how to hold the little coil spring with needle-nose pliers. The real challenge lies in the striker group, which has extremely small parts. We're talking down to 3mm long and 0.5 mm wide small. To begin with, your work area must not have any crevices into which these parts can escape.
    Working with the triggerbar spring made me want to vote for Bloomberg.
    “A gentleman is someone who can play the accordion, but doesn't.”
    ― Tom Waits

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by modrecoil View Post
    Working with the triggerbar spring made me want to vote for Bloomberg.
    Is it wrong to say the APX is the better mousetrap? From a vrief visual inspection of the apx, it sure seemed like it

  3. #83
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    I'm no expert, nor do I use a gun near as much as many here, and I sure as heck don't have a lot of time behind a Glock, but it's easy to recognize the issues with Sig as a company and their business practices. I find that very off putting. However, I really don't much like Glock pistols from a shootability standpoint. If I was looking for a striker fired pistol for a shooting gun, I'd strongly consider one. I wouldn't want to carry it, in the slightest, but I put a handful of rounds through a rental a few months ago, and I was rather impressed with the thing. The price on them is certainly attractive, too, in comparison to a lot of other options on the market. That said, I'm not in the market for a striker fired anything at the moment, and don't foresee being so any time soon, so it's a moot point.

  4. #84
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    I'll almost certainly buy an M17 or M18 just because I want a practice gun for what I may be issued in the Army. With luck, I'll be able to keep M9's indefinitely but I can't count on that.
    Otherwise I'd have no interest in one.

    On (insert high speed low drag meat eating sheep-hitting pipe-dog operator guy) sorts of recommendations:

    Gentlemen, those guys are the race car drivers of this world. Not the engine builders, not the suspension guys or aerodynamics guys, they're drivers.

    The worlds fastest and best drivers rarely know a damn thing about proper piston ring gaps, camshaft lift, aero balance, etc - they just know when the car is fast and works well for them so they can drive it faster. They don't give a tenth-inch of shit about the numbers and how or why, they know just enough to give good feedback.

    The issue with the gunternet levels of experience is that this overlap is not clearly defined like it is in cardom.

    Yes, I absolutely want driving lessons from the badass driver when I'm learning how to drive fast. He's the guy to talk to about those driving lessons. But he might not be the guy to talk to about building your engine, or tuning your suspension, especially if he's not particularly familiar with your car - he just happens to be a skilled driver that can drive it very quickly.
    Now, drivers that fancy a particular car will tend to learn a lot about it and can give precise and expert feedback on mechanical SNAFU's and such. E.g. guys who've carried and shot Glocks for entire careers of pistolcraft will sure as hell know how Glocks work.

    Putting an awesome driver in a fresh new car and running some fast laps are all great things, when we're comparing it to other new cars and lap times. When we're worried about tire life, long term reliability, etc - not necessarily the best data from which to work.


    Also, and more complicating - there's different kinds of skilled professional drivers than the rock star race car drivers. There's a shitload of guys driving massive 53ft semi trucks and being a 'good driver' in either of those disciplines have very different skillsets. So first things first, figure out what you're driving and then find those sorts of drivers. In one case, that race car driver gets switched-on and stays switched on for the whole time he's driving because he's pushing everything to the max and he knows he's at the limit.

    Truck drivers, meanwhile, endure hours of tedium that can very suddenly require accurate, effective, and precise reaction and driving skill to save their own lives and the lives of bystanders. Not glamorous like the race car driver, but a wildly different reality that dictates some very real differences in how those skills are applied.

    Neither of them are necessarily the guys to talk to about how things work under the hood, or what engine is best - they will have very rooted anecdotal experience and opinions but not the perspective of an engine builder, or shop foreman on what works and lasts and what doesn't.

    So the SOF operators know a lot about switching on, and bringing the fight to the bad guys and putting a shitload of hurt on much larger numbers of hostile Soldiers as a small effective element.
    But a 25 year experienced street cop has a hell of a lot more perspective on defending oneself from possibly lethal surprises in an otherwise normal-looking world.
    When it comes to running the pistol itself as best I can, I want the race car driver with hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange.
    When it comes to mindset, defensive tactics, carry, draw, concealment, gear selection that doesn't fuck your whole life up, etc - I'm listening to that beat cop first.

    That all said, I'll carry an HK USP45, Glock 19, or Beretta M9 depending on the situation that day. The only 'new' guns that may change that rotation are a Glock 48 and an HK45C LEM.

    I strongly doubt I'll ever daily carry the M17 or M18 I buy as a practice gun for a possible Army issued duty weapon - but if some weird miracle happens where I start shooting it measurably better or faster than my G19 or M9, and I run enough ammo through it to trust it, I'm open to the idea, especially if an SCD of some kind becomes available.
    But my current experience with other P320 models doesn't align with that possibility. The G2 G19 is my tired old pickup truck with all of its rattles and dents but is hauntingly reliable.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM Engineer View Post
    That's quite overstated.
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    And patently UNTRUE. The pre-selection testing was EXTREMELY limited. But, Sig brought the small number on the bid, so they got the contract.
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Again: The 320 is being marketed aggressively, especially to institutional users. Sig is following Glock's old business model for marketshare.

    The 320 has been through some rigorous testing...where it had significant issues. The FBI contract is likely the largest. All the scuttlebutt I heard coming out of the FBI on that was highly favorable until all of a sudden it wasn't due to serious issues that arose in testing and viola: The Gen5 Glock got the win.

    It's worth noting that the FBI, the USSS, and the CBP awards were made after some pretty thorough testing...and all went to Glock.

    The 320 has some significant potential advantages over Glock. An entire industry of reworking Glock grips hasn't materialized for no reason. The Glock is an ergonomic nightmare for most people's hands. The Sig's use of an easily replaceable frame that a fire control chassis slips into is brilliant. It's the execution of it that leaves much to be desired, and that's where Sig has been for a number of years. They've been willing to innovate but did so with significant problems in delivering on the final product.

    The S&W M&P is a superb design that had serious problems from the jump because of S&W's troubles delivering a proper end result. It took them until version 2.0 to address serious issues like the inconsistent lockup problem. Had they fixed that up front and not had a number of other problems along the way, who knows where the M&P might be right now.
    A couple notes with regard to federal agency testing. CBP is the largest LE agency in North America with 45k LEOs.

    The next biggest fed agency is ICE with a “mere” 15k LEO.

    The FBI contract including collateral purchases by other agencies such as DEA, the US marshals service and the US department of state diplomatic security service combined is still smaller than the CBP contract. In fact those combine purchases are just over half tne size of the CBP contract.

    There have been some individuals who question why different federal law enforcement agencies conduct their own testing or why they don’t just adopt whatever the military adopts because in their anti-government/libertarian myopia They fail to realize that the Darwinian competition for large contracts is the greatest spur to innovation, improvement and refinement in service pistol design.

    The FBI did the first round of recent federal pistol testing. The PE320 was the last pistol eliminated before leaving the Glock M models as the sole gun to pass testing and meet all requirements.

    Duding the ICE testing, the next big round of testing, The Glock M models were submitted and then withdrawn by Glock prior to the completion of the test. Both the SIG P320 and the FN 501, a non-commercial version of the 509 passed testing but the contract was awarded to SIG. The SIG P320 That passed the ICE testing was improved based on what was learned from the failures in the FBI testing.

    I don’t know the details of the USSS testing other than the fact that they conducted their own independent pistol testing And chose the same Glock model’s adopted by CBP.

    We do know that CBP conducted an extensive test of available modern service pistols and unlike most agencies they designed the testing protocols but had them executed by an independent non-government entity to in sure fairness and impartiality. The result was that the improved versions of Both the Glock MOS and Sigg P320 pro carry met the requirements and passed the testing. Both guns were then put In the hands of a large group of beta testers Who carried and shot them in the field. CBP then chose the Glock over the SIG based largely on the feedback from those and users.
    .
    Other contenders such as the Smith and Wesson M&P And the Beretta APX were entered into the US military MHS testing and several of the above mentioned law enforcement test but we’re unable to complete or meet requirements for any of them.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zman001 View Post
    Do you have an actual argument? Because "well they are making money" isn't a very good one.
    I told you I don't have a 320 nor do I want one. I'm just here to laugh at the virtue signaling and righteous indignation while SIG laughs all the way to the bank.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    The 320 becomes more and more popular in USPSA carry optics and production every passing month. They (we) shoot A LOT as a general rule. Probably more than most tac timmies, I would bet.

    Most people don't worry about the "reputation" of the company that made their pistol because it's irrelevant if theirs runs. They're not interested in virtue signaling or tilting at windmills.

    FTR, I neither have nor want a 320. I shot one once and it sucked.
    There’s a reason the P320 is gaining more popularity in USPSA than in IPSC. The arbitrary rule set that plays into the P320 in USPSA, or more accurately the P320 plays into the rule set.

    Also, as was stated, the P320 is probably the easiest to get up and competitive in Carry Optics.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    A couple notes with regard to federal agency testing. CBP is the largest LE agency in North America with 45k LEOs.

    I don’t know the details of the USSS testing other than the fact that they conducted their own independent pistol testing And chose the same Glock model’s adopted by CBP.

    We do know that CBP conducted an extensive test of available modern service pistols and unlike most agencies they designed the testing protocols but had them executed by an independent non-government entity to in sure fairness and impartiality. The result was that the improved versions of Both the Glock MOS and Sigg P320 pro carry met the requirements and passed the testing. Both guns were then put In the hands of a large group of beta testers Who carried and shot them in the field. CBP then chose the Glock over the SIG based largely on the feedback from those and users.
    Testing was conducted by the NIJ for CBP. Companies interested in competing for the contract submitted guns and paid NIJ to test them in accordance with the standards set by CBP.

    I believe USSS merely piggy backed off the CBP contract and did no additional testing on the gun.

    Also, the "beta tests" conducted by CBP were somewhat limited. Guns were shot in a closed environment and participants signed NDAs. Guns were not allowed off the testing venues and were not carried in the field. Tests done in field locations were one day only before moving on to the next location.

    The Glock and 320 were statistically tied after the testing phase was completed. Tie breaker was price.

    Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

  9. #89
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    This is a slight tangent, but...

    Sunday I flew back home from Manchester, NH on SWA. After boarding I was chatting with my row mate (we were trying to project “we’re big fuckers” vibes to prevent someone from picking the center seat,) and as it turned out he was a former SIG employee. I don’t want to out him as I think he’s still at least tangentially involved in the industry, but he was pretty high up in the management side. He said he reached the point where he just couldn’t work there anymore because of Ron and his policies. I mentioned the P320 rollout issues, and he said there were a lot of odd decisions made by the higher ups.

    SIG management reminds me of what happens when a charismatic MBA wonderchild gets hired to “fix” things, and all he cares about is this quarter, the next and just possibly one or two more after that because he will have found greener pastures to shit in by the time the full impact of his corrosive policies is felt.
    Ken

    BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    There’s a reason the P320 is gaining more popularity in USPSA than in IPSC. The arbitrary rule set that plays into the P320 in USPSA, or more accurately the P320 plays into the rule set.
    That almost sounds like what is killing participation at our local/regional stock car races.

    I sure wish I had realized 45 years ago that building a better mousetrap was not as important as marketing a better mousetrap or getting a government contract for mousetraps.
    g n

    (skeptical)

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