had a look -- Rogers said that flinch due to |pre| ignition push is 'nonsense' -- he seems to be arguing against the 'mistiming' line of thought. He does not address as far as I can tell how real post ignition push may be.Originally Posted by doctorpogo
Ignore Alien Orders
Totally agree. It needs to be something you do - and develop the ability to do - over time and over lots and lots of live fire practice.
Not really. The real reason for the difference in scoring was not recoil but magazine capacity. Once upon a time IPSC was just the mighty 1911, then it became the 1911 and the Browning Hi-Power. They tried to find a way to create parity between the 1911's magazine capacity and the Hi-Power's magazine capacity, and major vs. minor was born. These days the Hi-Power has been legislated out of existence in IPSC, but the only reason one would choose minor over major remains, and that reason is magazine capacity. Extremely rarely someone chooses to shoot Limited Minor in order to get 4 extra rounds in a magazine, and slightly more commonly people choose to shoot Single Stack in minor to get 2 extra rounds by shooting minor PF. Those few extra rounds historically haven't been enough to justify scoring minor, though some high-profile shooters have tried it more than once (BJ Norris shot minor at single stack nationals for a few years before giving in and switching to major). The reason they give when justifying shooting minor is the advantage in magazine capacity, not the reduced recoil impulse.
This pretty well describes what I was thinking.
I just didn't realize that the muzzle will dip from it, because I've never seen it. I don't watch competitions, so I've never seen *insert favorite ninja* display it. In addition, everyone I've ever seen dip the muzzle upon hitting a dummy or FTF also had a tendency of throwing shots.
Does anyone notice that shooters start to display post-ignition push after breaking through a certain plane of split times? So, guys under .xx split times typically display it, but guys over .xx splits typically do not?
For starters I would suggest no foregoing competitions. You can learn a lot from watching and mingling with the best pistol shooters in the world.
As to the second question, I don't think you're thinking of splits the right way. It's not that shooter 1 is a .16 split guy and shooter 2 is a .30 split guy. It's more like when the shot allows for really fast shooting, either shooter would need to drive the gun to get down into .16 second range. As Todd correctly pointed out such "driving" needs to be completely subconscious.
Obviously, competitions can have some good shooters present that I can learn stuff from, and I never said otherwise nor was it a question. I'm just not interested in competitions. It's a matter of apathy, and not of me actively foregoing competitions for whatever reason. I asked around for competitions in this area, and the one time I was actually interested enough to go, the range had caught on fire and was closed.
That wasn't what I was trying to address.
I hope I'm able to clarify this.......the question was whether people tend to display it after pushing splits to a certain point. If for instance that point is under .20, then it'd make sense that I've never seen post-ignition pushing because I don't ever shoot sub-.20 splits. I try to limit myself to how fast I can track/align the sights and complete a proper trigger press for the target at hand, and I can't fire that fast yet. Thus, for a given target, I'm guy X at .30 and "he" is guy Z at .16. What I'm thinking is that my sight tracking/alignment and trigger press abilities are the limiting factor in splits, so I'm not even in the realm of where post-ignition pushing would make a difference. That's more of what I'm trying to address.
Last edited by TGS; 05-07-2012 at 12:07 AM.
I think TGS has a point. At lower skill levels when we are not pushing hyper speed splits of the Leatham's, Sevigney's, Olhasso & Green's. There is a lesser need to aquire a post ignition push. You don't need to drive the gun back to point of aim and can allow the gun to settle back on it's own.
The way I teach my students is that they need a good stance and grip on the gun so the gun will not shift in their hands. The arms should have a relaxed constant tension in them to hold the gun in it's wobble zone on target. Keep that tension constant though out the firing sequence, so that you are neither pushing upward or down to help the gun in it's travels. If you keep that tension constant and your grip prevents the gun shifting in your hands the gun will settle back to approxiamately your original point of aim. Think of your arms as a leaf spring with your gun solidly attached to the end. When the gun fires the spring is going to flex and then return to it's orignial position. Now the stronger the spring, such as someone with greater muscle strength and mass the less flex there will be and the faster you will return to the target. The idea is not to add any extra downward motion or upward motion into the squence of events.
This sequence is only going to get you so far. The spring can only travel at a certain speed. So once you get to a certain point in your progression you are going to need to help the spring along, thus the post ignition push previously discussed with regards to our hyper speed shooters. They are now trying to speed the events along past the springs ability to return on target. These folks have put the time and rounds in to rule out a preignition push and subconsiously train in a post ignition push. We're not talking thousands of rounds; we're talking tens to hundreds of thousands of rounds to develop this timing. And their timing can be thrown off by any of a number of simple things. Look at the trouble Todd's having right now WHO because of pain in the thumb due to the laser grips inter-action with said thumb.
We all need to crawl before we walk, walk before we run and run before kicking in the hyper drive. Everyone is going to travel the path at differant speeds, either because of their size, strength (although I find the more muscle bound the student is the more they try to muscle the gun and develope a pre ignition push), natural ability etc. As with walking and the alike we are going to stumble from time to time skinning our knees, getting up and going on learning something new from each fall and scrape.
Back to TGS's original question, I don't think there is a magic hard core number where the post ignition push needs to come into play. For each person depending on their ability size and strength, that number is going to slide a bit either way on the scale.
Last edited by rsa-otc; 05-07-2012 at 06:41 AM.
Scott
Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."
FWIW, I know I was displaying a post-ignition push more than a decade ago back while I was still just an IDPA SSP Expert. I don't think it has as much to do with the speed of your splits as the amount of practice you've put into rapid multiple hits on a target.
Sounds like I need 500+ rounds/week, where each weekend I just fire at 3 yds to a 5 or 8" circle. Starting off really slow and then slowly working the pace upward??
My slow fire and dry fire skills seem rock solid to me, but anything live at speed starts tripping me up-even if it's the perception of speeding up-meaning I'm not using a timer.
Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.
We all need to practice what we're currently "bad" at. If that means you need to fling lead while watching your sights and pushing up the tempo - then so be it, even if you're not aiming at a target (that's actually a good way to practice). It's not wasting lead if you're learning something and developing new skills, right?
My point wasn't one of criticism of 'darnit, now I have to practice', rather 'is this what I should be practicing in order to stop this issue.' Just been hitting a wall lately and I hope it is a wall of resistance of old/bad habits rather than newly acquired bad habits
Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.
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